Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[Kyle Campbell]

Had a look at the mock up Alstom car today and a few changes from BBD cars. No door by the driver and back where doors open on both sides. Slope at the doors and see no reason for it if door level match the platforms like other systems in the US. The floor slopes up from the door area to the drive door. Small step to get a seat over the wheels. Driver compartment smaller than BBD cars and others I have seen so far.

Otherwise, see no real change, but this is only a small section considering the car is to be 45 m long. Will have a better review of the car when I see Ottawa car in Sept.

Afaik the only difference between Ottawa and Metrolinx Citadis vehicles will be the lack of a centre pole and seat colour. Not sure if the Metrolinx ones will have the door level LCD screens that in Ottawa display an OC Transpo logo and next station (can be seen in the video on the previous page)

 

[drum118]

Aug 30
Sq One Alstom Mock-up
Slopping floor to the cab

Wheel Seats

Slopping at door

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I believe the slight slope has to do with Alstom achieved full low floor but a 105 km/h top speed. All American LRVs are only 70% low floor. The only other full low floor vehicle in use in North America is the Flexity.

 

[drum118]

I believe the slight slope has to do with Alstom achieved full low floor but a 105 km/h top speed. All American LRVs are only 75% low floor. The only other full low floor vehicle in use in North America is the Flexity.

CAF 70% low floor with walk in to seats haft over the wheels. They only have 2 seat than the normal 4. Stadler 100' is 99%.

Cincinnati CAF

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I had forgotten that there were a few more entrants recently, I was thinking of the Siemens S70s and Kinki Sharyos that make up most of the American market.

 

[drum118]

I had forgotten that there were a few more entrants recently, I was thinking of the Siemens S70s and Kinki Sharyos that make up most of the American market.

I have to correct myself. CAF is 100% low floor with no slopping anywhere on the car or at doors. If you want to use the 2 lost seats over the wheels, it would be 95%.

Every NA LRV (10) system I have been on are either high floor or 70% low floor, other than Cincinnati. The S70 in Minneapolis have a slopping floor on the high level toward the cab like the Alstom car. The new cars for Boston are to be 100% low floor, but haven't seen them nor seen interior shots yet to say they are 100% for sure.

Other than Stadler in Europe, LRV's are 50-90% low floor. Stadler has the same seat over the wheel at the ends like the Flexity, but slop up between the seats with no steps. Rest of the seating is like TTC CLRV's.

None of the LRV's have a ramp at the doors and the gap is like TTC subway platforms, with less of a gap as well being flush with the car floor.

Brockville is making most of the 66' cars these days.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I have to correct myself. CAF is 100% low floor with no slopping anywhere on the car or at doors. If you want to use the 2 lost seats over the wheels, it would be 95%.

Every NA LRV (10) system I have been on are either high floor or 70% low floor, other than Cincinnati. The S70 in Minneapolis have a slopping floor on the high level toward the cab like the Alstom car. The new cars for Boston are to be 100% low floor, but haven't seen them nor seen interior shots yet to say they are 100% for sure.

Other than Stadler in Europe, LRV's are 50-90% low floor. Stadler has the same seat over the wheel at the ends like the Flexity, but slop up between the seats with no steps. Rest of the seating is like TTC CLRV's.

None of the LRV's have a ramp at the doors and the gap is like TTC subway platforms, with less of a gap as well being flush with the car floor.

Brockville is making most of the 66' cars these days.

When manufacturers claim full low floor, I think they only usually count the isle, otherwise the only thing they can do is take away seats, which isn't much of a competitive advantage.

As for Boston, they ended up with a model pretty much like their existing type 8, and only 70%, unlike earlier renderings

 

[smallspy]

Slope at the doors and see no reason for it if door level match the platforms like other systems in the US.

The slope at the doorways is to try and bring the door threshold down to the lowest level possible - usually 12" above the top of rail - and still have enough room under the floor for structure and some mechanical bits. It also helps minimize the length/size of the ramp on those cars where a ramp is installed.

There are a couple of car designs in Europe where they have managed to keep the floor flat and not have a slope at the doors, but they are generally older designs like the Siemens ULF. Most modern cars have a slope down to the door thresholds.

Dan

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Here's a question, does the Metrolinx version of the Citadis have a mainline-like high mounted headlight? The Flexities don't seem to, but Ottawa's citadis does. Some European ones have it, some don't so I'm wondering if this is an option OC Transpo picked. The Spirit seems to be derived from designs for Alstom's Dualis tram-trains, so mainline like features might just be built in.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Amazingly, that anti-transit Doug Ford didn't require license plates for the new light rail vehicles. Then again, he wouldn't notice those things.

 

[lenaitch]

Amazingly, that anti-transit Doug Ford didn't require license plates for the new light rail vehicles. Then again, he wouldn't notice those things.

Doesn't fit the definition of "motor vehicle" and, if you look at the HTA definition of 'highway', there might be some debate whether dedicated LRT rights-of-way are included.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Doesn't fit the definition of "motor vehicle" and, if you look at the HTA definition of 'highway', there might be some debate whether dedicated LRT rights-of-way are included.

I'd be interested if there's any legal opinions on whether they constitute streetcars yet...

 

[Steve X]

Doesn't fit the definition of "motor vehicle" and, if you look at the HTA definition of 'highway', there might be some debate whether dedicated LRT rights-of-way are included.

If it's not part is the highway but instead private property, then you should get a trespassing ticket if you drive on a dedicated lane. No trespassing signs should be posted instead of diamond lane signs. No HTA violation or demerit points would be issued in that case.

There isn't any technical difference between a streetcar and LRV. It should be seen as a streetcar operating on a lane part of the highway.

 

[lenaitch]

I'd be interested if there's any legal opinions on whether they constitute streetcars yet...

If it's not part is the highway but instead private property, then you should get a trespassing ticket if you drive on a dedicated lane. No trespassing signs should be posted instead of diamond lane signs. No HTA violation or demerit points would be issued in that case.

There isn't any technical difference between a streetcar and LRV. It should be seen as a streetcar operating on a lane part of the highway.

From 1(1) of the Highway Traffic Act for the benefit of those who wish to debate (highlighting added):

“motor vehicle” includes an automobile, a motorcycle, a motor assisted bicycle unless otherwise indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power, but does not include a street car or other motor vehicle running only upon rails, a power-assisted bicycle, a motorized snow vehicle, a traction engine, a farm tractor, a self-propelled implement of husbandry or a road-building machine;

(WRT to to comment about registration and plates. Motor vehicles need to be registered and display number plates/validation. 'Vehicles' do not.)

“highway” includes a common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof;

(It could be argued - maybe it has been - that an exclusive-use ROW portion would not be 'for the use by the public for the passage of vehicles')

“street car” includes a car of an electric or steam railway.

(Just in case anyone wants to consider steam as a power source. No mention of hydrogen! )

“vehicle” includes a motor vehicle, trailer, traction engine, farm tractor, road-building machine, bicycle and any vehicle drawn, propelled or driven by any kind of power, including muscular power, but does not include a motorized snow vehicle or a street car.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From 1(1) of the Highway Traffic Act for the benefit of those who wish to debate (highlighting added):

“motor vehicle” includes an automobile, a motorcycle, a motor assisted bicycle unless otherwise indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power, but does not include a street car or other motor vehicle running only upon rails, a power-assisted bicycle, a motorized snow vehicle, a traction engine, a farm tractor, a self-propelled implement of husbandry or a road-building machine;

(WRT to to comment about registration and plates. Motor vehicles need to be registered and display number plates/validation. 'Vehicles' do not.)

“highway” includes a common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof;

(It could be argued - maybe it has been - that an exclusive-use ROW portion would not be 'for the use by the public for the passage of vehicles')

“street car” includes a car of an electric or steam railway.

(Just in case anyone wants to consider steam as a power source. No mention of hydrogen! )

“vehicle” includes a motor vehicle, trailer, traction engine, farm tractor, road-building machine, bicycle and any vehicle drawn, propelled or driven by any kind of power, including muscular power, but does not include a motorized snow vehicle or a street car.

So the streetcar operator only obeys the traffic signals as a courtesy?