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Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

lordmandeep said:
with 84 billion dollars in debt, it should be paved with gold...
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.... or we could invite the Americans to carpet bomb Toronto and start everything fresh, which is pretty much what happened to Berlin 60 years ago.

We have to be very careful when comparing ourselves to European cities (yeah, I know, here I go again). They went through 30 years of extreme hardship (the Depression, the War and then the post-war rationing), whereas we were spoiled rotten in the Post War period

Pre-WWII, North America had a lot in common with Western Europe; post WWII, we went in completely different directions. We don't have their densities, their material shortages or their money, plus Canada is such a vast country. The economies of scale here are just not the same, nor ever will be.
 
^
True, we are very different. But the fact that Toronto is not European is irrelevant, in terms of transit. New York is about as North American as you can get, but their transportation system is incredible. Use of public transportation isn't just a European thing.
 
isittimetomoveyet said:
Very good point. We cant go nuts to the point of having billions of dollars of additional debt, unless we can show and implement laws to repay that on a consistent basis, such as what the Dalton McGuinty proposed doing for MoveOntario 2020.
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Just a question for people who might know.

Does this plan (when officially unveiled) replace, both, the city's Transit City Plan and MoveOntario 2020?

This is the sort of thing I was mentioning earlier about being cynical that any of these plans end up being done. One government announces Plan A.....which never happens because Plan B is announced before Plan A even starts.....then there is debate over the differences between A and B and who wins and loses in the transition.....then Plan C is announced and it is different than A or B and the debate restarts.

All I can say is that I want the lines/routes in this plan that benefit me built first and now....before someone comes up with D! (oh, yeah, then that "what gets built first" debate commences!).....forgot that one!
 
With respect to Move Ontario 2020, the province always intended for Metrolinx to take a second look at it and improve upon it if necessary. You should think of the Regional Transportation Plan as MO2020's expertly reviewed outcome.

As for Transit City, yes and no. The RTP ultimately will control how the provincial funding will flow, but if Toronto wanted to build a Transit City line without provincial funding then Metrolinx wouldn't necessarily have a say. If they want provincial funding then it has to go through Metrolinx, but this doesn't mean that Metrolinx shouldn't try to compromise where appropriate.

Legacy projects which are already fully funded (like Mississauga Transitway and Spadina subway extension) will go ahead, because it would be foolish to send the cheque back to Ottawa in this political environment. Of course, the RTP could set out future possibilities for the legacy projects.
 
Dichotomy said:
We have to be very careful when comparing ourselves to European cities (yeah, I know, here I go again). They went through 30 years of extreme hardship (the Depression, the War and then the post-war rationing), whereas we were spoiled rotten in the Post War period

Pre-WWII, North America had a lot in common with Western Europe; post WWII, we went in completely different directions. We don't have their densities, their material shortages or their money, plus Canada is such a vast country. The economies of scale here are just not the same, nor ever will be.
Click to expand...
No, where we have to be careful is when we dismiss comparisons to European cities simply because "we're not Europe". Toronto is second to only New York when it comes to transit ridership in North America, and it's much closer to European cities than North American cities in that respect. I have no idea how the vastness of Canada is in any way relevant to mass transit :confused:

RedRocket191 said:
With respect to Move Ontario 2020, the province always intended for Metrolinx to take a second look at it and improve upon it if necessary. You should think of the Regional Transportation Plan as MO2020's expertly reviewed outcome.

As for Transit City, yes and no. The RTP ultimately will control how the provincial funding will flow, but if Toronto wanted to build a Transit City line without provincial funding then Metrolinx wouldn't necessarily have a say. If they want provincial funding then it has to go through Metrolinx, but this doesn't mean that Metrolinx shouldn't try to compromise where appropriate.

Legacy projects which are already fully funded (like Mississauga Transitway and Spadina subway extension) will go ahead, because it would be foolish to send the cheque back to Ottawa in this political environment. Of course, the RTP could set out future possibilities for the legacy projects.
Click to expand...
MoveOntario2020 consists of transit plans all over Ontario. TransitCity is a part of MoveOntario2020 - they're not competing plans. MoveOntario2020 could always be amended to reflect changes to municipal plans.
 
urbanboom said:
^
True, we are very different. But the fact that Toronto is not European is irrelevant, in terms of transit. New York is about as North American as you can get, but their transportation system is incredible. Use of public transportation isn't just a European thing.
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Every city of 20 million has an amazing transit system: Sao Paulo, Tokyo, New York.
When we get to 20 million, I am sure MetroLinx will be built.

But by then, teleportation will be common..........:rolleyes:
 
MisterF said:
No, where we have to be careful is when we dismiss comparisons to European cities simply because "we're not Europe". Toronto is second to only New York when it comes to transit ridership in North America, and it's much closer to European cities than North American cities in that respect. I have no idea how the vastness of Canada is in any way relevant to mass transit :confused:


MoveOntario2020 consists of transit plans all over Ontario. TransitCity is a part of MoveOntario2020 - they're not competing plans. MoveOntario2020 could always be amended to reflect changes to municipal plans.
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Well, I hope you have someone else do your monthly budget and annual taxes. ;)

London and Berlin can afford to build mega projects because the burden is spread across double the population. Try building a mile of 4-lane highway on the Canadian Shield, then compare that to building a train track through the Thames Lowlands.........:rolleyes:

We may spend like we are First World in this country, but we are rapidly becoming Second World.
 
Dichotomy said:
Well, I hope you have someone else do your monthly budget and annual taxes. ;)

London and Berlin can afford to build mega projects because the burden is spread across double the population. Try building a mile of 4-lane highway on the Canadian Shield, then compare that to building a train track through the Thames Lowlands.........:rolleyes:

We may spend like we are First World in this country, but we are rapidly becoming Second World.
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If you have double the population wouldn't you need double the service to get the same amount of transit riders? It is density, not population, that makes a difference. If the entire population of the GTA fit into the old city of Toronto we would spend less on new subway/GO lines, but the amount of trains/buses would be ridiculous. If everyone lived in single family homes on big lots in cul-de-sacs, transit projects would need to cover a further distance and cost more.

The problem with funding anything in Toronto is that it requires funding from three levels of government that rarely see eye-to-eye. The intense regionalism in Canada makes it so that if the federal government invests in Toronto substantially they'd lose support elsewhere. Balance that out with the 416/905 split that is brought on by the limited funding and there you have a sad state of affairs. What needs to happen is a reliable source of funding for municipalities, which isn't going to happen as long as the province controls them. For example, we start tolling roads under the Liberals, the PCs eager to win votes say they will scrap the whole system and they get elected and all the transit projects that was going to fund get thrown out.

I don't see how we are rapidly becoming the Second World. I haven't even heard the term "Second World" in a while, usually only in the context of the Eastern Bloc. For more than a decade we've been used to operating under budget surpluses, something most first world countries don't do, we're not even in deficit spending yet.
 
Dichotomy said:
Well, I hope you have someone else do your monthly budget and annual taxes. ;)

London and Berlin can afford to build mega projects because the burden is spread across double the population. Try building a mile of 4-lane highway on the Canadian Shield, then compare that to building a train track through the Thames Lowlands.........:rolleyes:

We may spend like we are First World in this country, but we are rapidly becoming Second World.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what the vastness of Canada has to do with the efficiency of a service that is restricted to urban areas, which is a small landmass and where a disproportionate of Canada's wealth comes from. No one has proposed a commuter rail service to Winnipeg anyways. Seriously, are you really that ignorant or are you just trolling?

I hope you have someone else do your monthly budget and annual taxes.
 
lesouris said:
If the entire population of the GTA fit into the old city of Toronto we would spend less on new subway/GO lines, but the amount of trains/buses would be ridiculous.
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If the entire population of the GTA was placed within Toronto only, it would still be less dense than NY.
 
doady said:
I am not sure what the vastness of Canada has to do with the efficiency of a service that is restricted to urban areas, which is a small landmass and where a disproportionate of Canada's wealth comes from. No one has proposed a commuter rail service to Winnipeg anyways. Seriously, are you really that ignorant or are you just trolling?

I hope you have someone else do your monthly budget and annual taxes.
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I can read, though.

Let me spell this out for you:

London, England, capital of England has 54 million people to look out for in a country that would fit in a corner of Quebec.
Berlin, Germany, now capital of the united Germanies, has 90 million people to look out for in a country still smaller than Quebec.
Ottawa, Canada, capital of Canada, has 34 million people to look out for (and draw taxes from) and has a land mass bigger than some continents to spread that money across.

Again, I point you to the cost of a mile of commuter track in the Greater London area, versus the cost of blasting rock in the Cambrian Shield. Queen's Park and Ottawa have a lot of fish to fry. London and Berlin don't. (Well, I guess Berlin is paying for 50 years of neglect in East Germany, but that is another matter!)

We are also trying to run the same number of embassies, look out for far too many 'Canadians' who are 'living abroad,' fund foreign missions and charities, all the while trying to run a fantastically huge country.

Is there any wonder Ottawa doesn't have a lot of money to spread around?
It costs a lot of money to maintain 'first world' status. Ottawa takes a lot more money out of Toronto than it puts back in, to be sure.

And Toronto is running a huge deficit. Ottawa is probably cooking the books. If you pile on Ontario Hydro's debt and other public debts, it is pretty ugly.
We are a few more job losses short of becoming 'second world.' ( I would desperately hope we can avoid 'third world status!')
 
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