kEiThZ
Superstar
Your thoughts....
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Liberal-NDP Coalition
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
I voted Conservative the last time around because I thought they would apply sound, cautious management to the economy. Instead, Harper chooses to attack the Opposition. Sadly, that leaves me with no choice but to support his ouster....But I do have reservations about this coalition. It bolsters the Bloc. And much of the so-called stimulus is anything but. If the rumours are to be believed its 30 billion in spending for new social programs (child care, etc) not stuff that stimulates the economy per se.
afransen
Senior Member
Voted Liberal. I think Harper is dangerous and ought to be replaced (told you so, Keith!!). I don't think Dion is the man to lead it. I'm not sure that the coalition is the best move for progressives or the Liberals. I don't think the BQ having say in government is all that dangerous. It couldn't be any worse than Harper trying to buy Quebec for the past few years.
I think what Harper has done to save his ass is terrible: first, fanning the flames of Quebec separatism by making them to boogeymen. Secondly, putting the GG in an untenable position by asking for a prorogation (only way to fix this is to take the power to prorogate out of the hands of the PM and into the hands of Parliament). And thirdly, question the validity of our democratic system by implying we have a presidency or direct democracy rather than the representative Parliamentary democracy we do have, and asking people to put political pressure on the GG (unforgivable).
I think what Harper has done to save his ass is terrible: first, fanning the flames of Quebec separatism by making them to boogeymen. Secondly, putting the GG in an untenable position by asking for a prorogation (only way to fix this is to take the power to prorogate out of the hands of the PM and into the hands of Parliament). And thirdly, question the validity of our democratic system by implying we have a presidency or direct democracy rather than the representative Parliamentary democracy we do have, and asking people to put political pressure on the GG (unforgivable).
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
If your enemy is stronger annoy him and run away. The coalition itself is a strong move as a threat but the ultimate goal for the coalition and Liberal party in particular should be to prop up the Harper government at all cost. You've got to be completely insane to want to hold power over the next 3 years. You couldn't even call taking over power at this junction a Peric victory, it's more like temporary insanity.
Brian69
Not the Messiah
I also supported the Tories during the election but was royally pissed when Harper attempted to settle scores rather than focus on the economy. Trying to economically cripple the opposition is like piling on well after the running back went down. And for him to do something that guaranteed a reaction when he had a minority government just boggles the mind.
On the other hand, I have no love for this coalition either. Notwithstanding attempts by the Tories to do a deal with the devil in the past (which I would have equally decried had they come to fruition) I think any deal with the Bloc only hurts federalism and will likely involve a big hit in Canada's collective pocketbook as well. Furthermore, the strongest member of the coalition has the weakest leader and will require a new one shortly who had no involvement (as leader) in the recent election. It irks me to say that the best part of the coalition is Jack Layton, but there you go.
I think Harper has been given a sound whipping and will be more careful what he does, so I'd accept giving him a chance to put out an economic policy for these tough times. Yes, he probably deserves to be turfed for his actions but knocking out a party barely a month after they take power through the combined work three other parties doesn't look so hot either. Yes, there's 62% yada yada yada, but that's 62% split among three very different parties--it's a united front of convenience, not of ideology. The biggest problem is how this whole mess has polarized liberals and conservatives (and East and West) far more than the election itself did. It may have woken us from our 58% voting complacency, but not necessarily in a healthy way.
On the other hand, I have no love for this coalition either. Notwithstanding attempts by the Tories to do a deal with the devil in the past (which I would have equally decried had they come to fruition) I think any deal with the Bloc only hurts federalism and will likely involve a big hit in Canada's collective pocketbook as well. Furthermore, the strongest member of the coalition has the weakest leader and will require a new one shortly who had no involvement (as leader) in the recent election. It irks me to say that the best part of the coalition is Jack Layton, but there you go.
I think Harper has been given a sound whipping and will be more careful what he does, so I'd accept giving him a chance to put out an economic policy for these tough times. Yes, he probably deserves to be turfed for his actions but knocking out a party barely a month after they take power through the combined work three other parties doesn't look so hot either. Yes, there's 62% yada yada yada, but that's 62% split among three very different parties--it's a united front of convenience, not of ideology. The biggest problem is how this whole mess has polarized liberals and conservatives (and East and West) far more than the election itself did. It may have woken us from our 58% voting complacency, but not necessarily in a healthy way.
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Admiral Beez
Superstar
The thought of Prime Minister Rae and Finance Minister Layton should bring fear to everyone. At least it now appears that Iggy will take the reins.
ShonTron
Moderator
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What? Finance Minister Flaherty, the master of hiding deficits and cooking the books not scary enough?
If you bothered to read the news, the Minister of Finance was going to be a Liberal under the coalition deal. The NDP even realizes that people wouldn't trust the NDP with the finances, you know, unlike say the fiscal prudence of governments of Gary Doer, Roy Romanow, Tommy Douglas and such. No, they trust people like Eves and Flaherty.
If you bothered to read the news, the Minister of Finance was going to be a Liberal under the coalition deal. The NDP even realizes that people wouldn't trust the NDP with the finances, you know, unlike say the fiscal prudence of governments of Gary Doer, Roy Romanow, Tommy Douglas and such. No, they trust people like Eves and Flaherty.
lordmandeep
Banned
Iggy will take control of the Liberal party.
Finally a return to the saneness of the Centre.
He will easily get 100 seats, impossibile now for the Tories to get majority if 90-100 go the Liberals and 50 to the Bloc.
NDP will go down next election, people have had enough of thier bullshit and with a stronger Liberal leader, you will see a bunch of Liberals come back.
I think he would get 30% of the vote at least.
Finally a return to the saneness of the Centre.
He will easily get 100 seats, impossibile now for the Tories to get majority if 90-100 go the Liberals and 50 to the Bloc.
NDP will go down next election, people have had enough of thier bullshit and with a stronger Liberal leader, you will see a bunch of Liberals come back.
I think he would get 30% of the vote at least.
junctionist
Senior Member
Does this mean we'll get the Green Shift implemented?
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Soo.... much pent up anger... must resist urge to rant. As far as Iggy inheriting a poisoned chalice, I don't think things can get THAT much worse for the Liberals. Maybe if they start an alliance with the Marxist party, just to get the center left rainbow a bit brighter. The one positive I can see from all of this is that, when people are examining the Dion era, the carbon tax will be overshadowed by this boondoggle. So, hopefully people will forget about that faux pas.
kEiThZ
Superstar
My concern for the coalition is not so much the separatists. They might get a temporary shot in the arm but that can be remedied over time by keeping them on the opposition benches for another decade or so. The more immediate concern is allowing the NDP access to the till. I am sincerely concerned that the coalition is using the excuse of the economic downturn to ram through expensive social programs and pet projects.
Now I'll admit that I have my doubts about high speed rail and the feds funding urban transit. But I do agree that we need to invest in our infrastructure. Unfortunately, high speed rail and subway lines with 10 year time frames do very little to provide stimulus. Indeed, that's exactly why they are not being proposed as part of the Obama stimulus plan. There is no talk of undertaking a responsible stimulus which would be tackling things that can be done immediately....by tackling deferred maintenance on our post-secondary education infrastructure (6 billion dollar backlog), defence infrastructure (2 billion), buildings and facilities under federal jurisdiction (ports, airports, heritage buildings, federal offices, etc.), infrastructure on first nations reservations. Combined all that expenditure, under federal jurisdiction alone could easily top 10 billion, be distributed throughout Canada, and be underway in months.
Investment in urban transit, water infrastructure, etc. is certainly necessary over the long term, but it will provide no stimulus, because by the time the first shovel is in the ground this recession will be over and all the government will be doing is inflating the boom that follows. Worse still is the proposal for various social programs like child care. They pass them off as stimulus. But what happens when the recession ends. Who pays for them then? It'll be another program to severely damage the fiscal positions of the provinces....if the provinces agree to these programs. All these are certainly needed but if we are going to implement, let's have the discussion of how we should pay for them, not ram them through on the credit card.
As for Harper, one hopes he's brilliant enough to figure out that he has irreparably damaged his career, and caused recoverable but severe damage to the Conservative Party and Canad. It's time for him to resign and give up the reigns of the CPC to somebody more moderate/centrist.
Now I'll admit that I have my doubts about high speed rail and the feds funding urban transit. But I do agree that we need to invest in our infrastructure. Unfortunately, high speed rail and subway lines with 10 year time frames do very little to provide stimulus. Indeed, that's exactly why they are not being proposed as part of the Obama stimulus plan. There is no talk of undertaking a responsible stimulus which would be tackling things that can be done immediately....by tackling deferred maintenance on our post-secondary education infrastructure (6 billion dollar backlog), defence infrastructure (2 billion), buildings and facilities under federal jurisdiction (ports, airports, heritage buildings, federal offices, etc.), infrastructure on first nations reservations. Combined all that expenditure, under federal jurisdiction alone could easily top 10 billion, be distributed throughout Canada, and be underway in months.
Investment in urban transit, water infrastructure, etc. is certainly necessary over the long term, but it will provide no stimulus, because by the time the first shovel is in the ground this recession will be over and all the government will be doing is inflating the boom that follows. Worse still is the proposal for various social programs like child care. They pass them off as stimulus. But what happens when the recession ends. Who pays for them then? It'll be another program to severely damage the fiscal positions of the provinces....if the provinces agree to these programs. All these are certainly needed but if we are going to implement, let's have the discussion of how we should pay for them, not ram them through on the credit card.
As for Harper, one hopes he's brilliant enough to figure out that he has irreparably damaged his career, and caused recoverable but severe damage to the Conservative Party and Canad. It's time for him to resign and give up the reigns of the CPC to somebody more moderate/centrist.
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MegaMax
New Member
Dude! You should get on the CBC At Issue Panel! That's deep!
I think the NDP should have influence. I don't think Iggy Pop stands for much. The NDP is at least committed to infrastructure spending. This is probably the best stimulus as it will employ Canadians - construction workers, engineers, equipment manufacturers, and not send the money to the Waltons or overseas from tax cuts or rebate checks. I prefer Rae, I think he gets it more than the absent minded professor.
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afransen
Senior Member
Keith: the conservative wing of the CPC has tolerated Harper because he was installed as leader by the far right evangelicals (though he still refuses to disclose those who bankrolled his leadership bid), and they expect that he has a "hidden agenda" were he to get a majority. So, to dump Harper and replace him with someone who governs even more as a Liberal would be to tempt another split giving rise to Reform II. The only thing that stops them now, despite their disgust with how left Harper is governing, is that the split left them in the wilderness for 15 years, with someone even further left running the show.
Brian69
Not the Messiah
I find that a concern as well. While I'd love to see more effort towards infrastructure I doubt the coalition will be dangling that one in front of the public--more likely it will be the social programs you mention. I hope they manage to avoid making promises now that we'll be paying for later.
As far as Harper going, he's a polarizing figure but a figure nonetheless. I don't think the Tories want to end up in a Dion-like wilderness by having some technocrat (or, gawd forbid, Stockwell Day j/k) running things while poster-boy Ignatieff gets the Liberal Party engine revving once again. I suspect he'll hold on unless things become totally out of hand for the party.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Time will tell, but it does not look hopeful. Compare the Obama stimulus and the Liberal-NDP accord. It's quite instructive to see the difference. I've hedged my bets and bought stock in infrastructure companies. Harper was right about the bargains. All those builders have seen their stock tank as the housing market seizes up.....now if only there's a stimulus to give them business....
Nah, I think the knives are probably already out now that he has virtually ensured that under his leadership no majority is possible. If they were smart they'd dump him now and pick a new leader who can claim to have broken with the past. I don't think most centrists will be able to vote Conservative after these shenanigans. I certainly won't be supporting them till they dump Harper. I could stand a poor showing. But perpetuating a Constitutional crisis while it looks like we're heading for an economic crisis, and all possibly resulting in a unity crisis, should be grounds for a resignation. If this was Japan, he'd be enjoying the afterlife already.....
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