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Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

Blame that on VIA & Ottawa, not Alberta.
Why? Ottawa pays (through VIA) for the operation of VIA’s network, but all the routes which have disappeared since 1990 (Gaspé, Senneterre-Cochrane, Pukatawagan-Lynn Lake, Vancouver Island) have been lost due to the reapective provincial premiers’ refusal to fund the necessary infrastructure to sustain passenger service. To the best of my knowledge, it was no different with the Albertan givernment of the day, which refuses to pay more than a measly $1 million to fix the dangerous level crossings along the Edmonton-Calgary route (presumably less than what the federal government paid annually for maintaining the service) and that’s how it was lost in 1986 (?), at a time where routes were revived across the country (e.g., Moncton-Edmundston, Toronto-Havelock, Jasper-Vancouver).

I’m certain that Calgary-Edmonton would have survived the 1990 cuts as a “Corridor” service if the Albertan government had been willing to save the train in the mid 1980s by paying for upgrading its infrastructure…
 
Why? Ottawa pays (through VIA) for the operation of VIA’s network, but all the routes which have disappeared since 1990 (Gaspé, Senneterre-Cochrane, Pukatawagan-Lynn Lake, Vancouver Island) have been lost due to the reapective provincial premiers’ refusal to fund the necessary infrastructure to sustain passenger service. To the best of my knowledge, it was no different with the Albertan givernment of the day, which refuses to pay more than a measly $1 million to fix the dangerous level crossings along the Edmonton-Calgary route (presumably less than what the federal government paid annually for maintaining the service) and that’s how it was lost in 1986 (?), at a time where routes were revived across the country (e.g., Moncton-Edmundston, Toronto-Havelock, Jasper-Vancouver).

I’m certain that Calgary-Edmonton would have survived the 1990 cuts as a “Corridor” service if the Albertan government had been willing to save the train in the mid 1980s by paying for upgrading its infrastructure…

I don't disagree, but I think one ought to look at that history a bit more dispassionately and realize that the entire political spectrum and the majority of public opinion across all levels accepted that decision. And really, the needle of public opinion towards investing in rail transportation (especially at the provincial level) didn't start moving until well into the new millenium.

If you look at how Ontario struggled with the premise of shifting the (much shorter) Barrie and Stouffville commuter lines from VIA to GO in that same era.... and its decision to not do likewise with the Havelock service ..... or the ACR service, for that matter.....the role of provinces in anything other than the shortest commuter transit was just not thought of in the 1980s and even 1990s. Perhaps the ONR investment in TEE trains set a precedent, but that was all about northern development and resisted as a model for provincial support of rail service generally.

It's certainly a sad story in hindsight...... if you look at what it would have cost to grade-crossing-protect the Calgary Edmonton line, and perhaps do incremental signalling and track upkeep over the years....as a proportion of all the money that has been invested in air terminals, runways, and highways between those two cities.... the rail infra cost would be lost in the rounding. Even with an investment in LRC trains commensurate with the O-Q corridor, and a maintenance base... it might have been affordable. So a lamentable case of opportunity not realised.

But at the same time..... can we say that building that railway would have created a stimulus to development, or acted as a driver to economic prosperity for the province, over what it realised without rail service ? And one has to realise that the early 80's were recession years in Alberta... just about everyone in the oil fields was trying to sell their RVs and camps. Money was tight.

If it came down to a choice of grade protecting Alberta crossings versus funding something else, the decision was likely the right one. (Build a rail line by not hiring Wayne Gretzky and saving his salary costs? Alberta came out ahead, for sure)

Anyways, we have to play the ball where it lies, and we can't change the past. But the blame game doesn't make today's business case any better. Things are what they are.

- Paul

PS - a neighbour worked on the early steps when Ontario first realised it needed to have a policy and regulatory framework for branch line and small railways. I am told It was a green field, no one outside of GO and ONR had railway knowledge, and it was hard to say with certainty what would be needed. The main point is, it happened not so many years ago. The idea of railroads being a provincial matter is still a new one in this country.
 
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I don't disagree, but I think one ought to look at that history a bit more dispassionately and realize that the entire political spectrum and the majority of public opinion across all levels accepted that decision. And really, the needle of public opinion towards investing in rail transportation (especially at the provincial level) didn't start moving until well into the new millenium.

If you look at how Ontario struggled with the premise of shifting the (much shorter) Barrie and Stouffville commuter lines from VIA to GO in that same era.... and its decision to not do likewise with the Havelock service ..... or the ACR service, for that matter.....the role of provinces in anything other than the shortest commuter transit was just not thought of in the 1980s and even 1990s. Perhaps the ONR investment in TEE trains set a precedent, but that was all about northern development and resisted as a model for provincial support of rail service generally.

It's certainly a sad story in hindsight...... if you look at what it would have cost to grade-crossing-protect the Calgary Edmonton line, and perhaps do incremental signalling and track upkeep over the years....as a proportion of all the money that has been invested in air terminals, runways, and highways between those two cities.... the rail infra cost would be lost in the rounding. Even with an investment in LRC trains commensurate with the O-Q corridor, and a maintenance base... it might have been affordable. So a lamentable case of opportunity not realised.

But at the same time..... can we say that building that railway would have created a stimulus to development, or acted as a driver to economic prosperity for the province, over what it realised without rail service ? And one has to realise that the early 80's were recession years in Alberta... just about everyone in the oil fields was trying to sell their RVs and camps. Money was tight.

If it came down to a choice of grade protecting Alberta crossings versus funding something else, the decision was likely the right one. (Build a rail line by not hiring Wayne Gretzky and saving his salary costs? Alberta came out ahead, for sure)

Anyways, we have to play the ball where it lies, and we can't change the past. But the blame game doesn't make today's business case any better. Things are what they are.

- Paul

PS - a neighbour worked on the early steps when Ontario first realised it needed to have a policy and regulatory framework for branch line and small railways. I am told It was a green field, no one outside of GO and ONR had railway knowledge, and it was hard to say with certainty what would be needed. The main point is, it happened not so many years ago. The idea of railroads being a provincial matter is still a new one in this country.
To your last point, the Ontario Shortline Railways Act only dates back to 1995.
 
I just reread the 1981 "Scrievener Report" - a task force commissioned by the Premier of Ontario to analyse the future role of railways in Ontario and how provincial and federal policy should align. Official name - Ontario Task Force on Future Rail Policy - The Future of Rail - Final Report

It can be found at https://archive.org/details/futureroleofrail00scri_0/mode/2up

It's an interesting read especially in terms of many good ideas and observations which were known all along but which Ottawa in particular has never acted upon.

The most interesting thing is how a thorough 136-page report wants so many things done but steps obsessively around the question of "who should pay for what". It's Exhibit A in my premise that the Provinces traditionally did not pay for anything rail oriented, and thus simply waited for Ottawa to pick up the cheque.

- Paul
 
I just reread the 1981 "Scrievener Report" - a task force commissioned by the Premier of Ontario to analyse the future role of railways in Ontario and how provincial and federal policy should align. Official name - Ontario Task Force on Future Rail Policy - The Future of Rail - Final Report

It can be found at https://archive.org/details/futureroleofrail00scri_0/mode/2up

It's an interesting read especially in terms of many good ideas and observations which were known all along but which Ottawa in particular has never acted upon.

The most interesting thing is how a thorough 136-page report wants so many things done but steps obsessively around the question of "who should pay for what". It's Exhibit A in my premise that the Provinces traditionally did not pay for anything rail oriented, and thus simply waited for Ottawa to pick up the cheque.

- Paul
If the federal government came to the provinces and said that they would keep certain services if the provinces pay a portion of the costs, that may have saved some services. Do we have a record that they did approach the provinces?

For the routes on abandoned tracks, the federal government and the owner of the rails should have approached the province asking to have them buy it.

The major problem I see in all of that thinking is this was a time when the provinces were also downsizing. Remember Mike Harris's 'Common Sense revolution'? With all the things it did, it has caused many of the existing problems across this province.

If Via is to expand outside of the Corridor/HSR, there needs to be some discussion with the provinces about paying for a portion of it. Amtrak, for all its flaws has shown this can be a good thing, and even lead to expansion of services.
 
I am preparing to take the Canadian to Toronto. I know it leaves Capreol around 430am. My thinking is I do not need a bed to sleep. I'll have slept before getting on the train. However, I don't want just economy as it does not permit access to the park car. So, I will have to book a berth. When they get a replacement fleet, my hope is they have some sort of higher class seating that does not require a berth or higher to be booked for those of us taking it for shorter rides while still allowing the full access to the train's services. I'd imagine it could be a segment of pricing the current set up misses out on.
 
Alberta's plans for intercity passenger rail are pretty impressive. I'm pleasently surprised that government sees fast and frequent rail as key to accomadating their rapid growth. I was expecting them to go all-in highway expansion. Hopefully this is the start of provinces having grown up conversations about passenger rail.

This is an approach badly needed in Ontario, especially southern Ontario with routes like Toronto-Windsor and Toronto-Niagara Falls. As it stands, the Provincial government seems satisfied passing the buck to the Feds and relying on the skeleton VIA service. You would expect the 400-series highways approaching capacity would force their hand, but alas...
 
Alberta's plans for intercity passenger rail are pretty impressive. I'm pleasently surprised that government sees fast and frequent rail as key to accomadating their rapid growth. I was expecting them to go all-in highway expansion. Hopefully this is the start of provinces having grown up conversations about passenger rail.

This is an approach badly needed in Ontario, especially southern Ontario with routes like Toronto-Windsor and Toronto-Niagara Falls. As it stands, the Provincial government seems satisfied passing the buck to the Feds and relying on the skeleton VIA service. You would expect the 400-series highways approaching capacity would force their hand, but alas...
If you follow the construction and widening of the 400 series highways through the decades, The province waits until they are either gridlocked or unsafe before doing anything. Even with the expansion of GO or other rail transit, they wait far to long. So, is it any wonder they ignore intercity rail service? They could have used the Ontario Northland as the agency in charge of intercity rail throughout the entire province.
 
Alberta's plans for intercity passenger rail are pretty impressive. I'm pleasently surprised that government sees fast and frequent rail as key to accomadating their rapid growth. I was expecting them to go all-in highway expansion. Hopefully this is the start of provinces having grown up conversations about passenger rail.
Ontario’s plans for HSR were also “pretty impressive”, but it is unfortunately only when plans need to get funded that you find out whether a government is determined to deliver on its promisses: this is were Wynne failed miserably, whereas Ford delivered (for urban and regional rail in the GTHA mostly). We will soon find out whether Alberta follows the paths of Wynne or Ford…
This is an approach badly needed in Ontario, especially southern Ontario with routes like Toronto-Windsor and Toronto-Niagara Falls. As it stands, the Provincial government seems satisfied passing the buck to the Feds and relying on the skeleton VIA service. You would expect the 400-series highways approaching capacity would force their hand, but alas...
Once Metrolinx has found a way to sneak frequent passenger trains past Georgetown and Aldershot, it will be infinitely easier to provide faster and more frequent intercity rail service to Southwest Ontario…
 
One of the problems, at least politically, is that Ford didn't do very well in either London or Windsor. Added to this is that Trudeau gave the GTAH 16 cabinet ministers yet SWO got none. Trudeau probably thinks a trip to London requires going thru customs and Windsor is a wonderful castle.

As for Alberta, the reason the VIA rail route goes thru Edmonton and not the busier and more direct line thru Calgary was due to politics. In the 80s, when Mulroney was slashing service, the Minister of Transportation at the time was Don Mazenkowski who just happened to have a seat just east of Edmonton. In other words, the travelling public got screwed because he wanted to keep his seat. Therefore what I said stands, it's Ottawa;s fault not Alberta's.
 
As for Alberta, the reason the VIA rail route goes thru Edmonton and not the busier and more direct line thru Calgary was due to politics. In the 80s, when Mulroney was slashing service, the Minister of Transportation at the time was Don Mazenkowski who just happened to have a seat just east of Edmonton. In other words, the travelling public got screwed because he wanted to keep his seat. Therefore what I said stands, it's Ottawa;s fault not Alberta's.
What you are saying is the most boring and easiest to debunk conspiracy theory certain railfans (honrary mention to @micheal_can) religiously believe for whatever ridiculous reason:
Chosing the CN route West of Winnipeg was a nobrainer, as the CP line does not connect with the Skeena. Given that the stated policy objective was to minimize VIA’s operating subsidy, extending the Skeena to Kamloops (so that it connects with the rest of the network) was out of the question.
Similarly, chosing CN east of Winnipeg allowed the elimination of the Capreol-Winnipeg remote service, which required much more subsidies to run than the SUDB-WHTR RDC.
Whether chosing CN was more or less convenient to the politicians is a moot question, as the decision can already be explained with totally legit motives…
 
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Whether chosing CN was more or less convenient to the politicians is a moot question, as the decision can already be explained with totally legit motives…

While little documentation has been made available publicly, it has been reported that the decision was also guided by financial considerations. There were reportedly significant differences in the potential severance, employment guarantees, and benefit maintenance costs for the two workforces. CP's workforce had a larger number of eligible retirees, for whom pension funding was already in the bank and who could be induced to retire without lengthy wage maintenance costs. I have been told (by someone who was in the room for the discussions) that had the CN route been eliminated, the payout for severance and job loss would have been much greater.

Plus, CN was still government owned at the time, and the route chosen removed much more of the "burden" of the operation from the private sector.

- Paul
 
One of the problems, at least politically, is that Ford didn't do very well in either London or Windsor. Added to this is that Trudeau gave the GTAH 16 cabinet ministers yet SWO got none. Trudeau probably thinks a trip to London requires going thru customs and Windsor is a wonderful castle.

As for Alberta, the reason the VIA rail route goes thru Edmonton and not the busier and more direct line thru Calgary was due to politics. In the 80s, when Mulroney was slashing service, the Minister of Transportation at the time was Don Mazenkowski who just happened to have a seat just east of Edmonton. In other words, the travelling public got screwed because he wanted to keep his seat. Therefore what I said stands, it's Ottawa;s fault not Alberta's.

As you see, you got the same old adage when in their own proof, it proved that the southern route was more profitable. And then he will argue maintenance for the Skeena would be harder as they would not be connected. It is one of those things I no longer argue with him as it is pointless.
 
As you see, you got the same old adage when in their own proof, it proved that the southern route was more profitable. And then he will argue maintenance for the Skeena would be harder as they would not be connected. It is one of those things I no longer argue with him as it is pointless.
Seems like a little confirmational bias. You have three explanations in a row and glom onto the one that fits your narrative. I can't argue that any particular one is right or wrong, but it seems to point to a rather closed mind.
 
Seems like a little confirmational bias. You have three explanations in a row and glom onto the one that fits your narrative. I can't argue that any particular one is right or wrong, but it seems to point to a rather closed mind.
I dropped this years ago.
 

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