ssiguy2
Senior Member
I can see wanting a KW connection to Toronto for the high tech sector but it shouldn't be viewed in isolation. It MUST go to London at the same time not only for service to the SW but also politically it will be a no-go.
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Kitchener to Toronto train service & the tech sector
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
mpd618
Active Member
Politically, if GO Transit launched two-way service to Kitchener tomorrow, it would be hailed as a big win. Cambridge would be loudest in "why not us", not London.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
For GO that's true but not for HSR.
Jonny5
Senior Member
London is a tiny, backwards, conservative and willfully isolated place. That's harsh but the truth.
If you knew anything about Ontario you would know they would likely oppose GO or any better rail service, if not for their own fear of the big city, than for the waste of tax dollars on something so farcically useless. 80% of the alleged benefits of HSR can be had with fixing the horribly deteriorated existing track between the cities. But there is no impetus for that because the business relationships between the cities are tiny and if anything declining. And NO. Western is not relevant in the rail picture at all. People working in Waterloo do not long to live in downtown Toronto. That's farce.
If you knew anything about Ontario you would know they would likely oppose GO or any better rail service, if not for their own fear of the big city, than for the waste of tax dollars on something so farcically useless. 80% of the alleged benefits of HSR can be had with fixing the horribly deteriorated existing track between the cities. But there is no impetus for that because the business relationships between the cities are tiny and if anything declining. And NO. Western is not relevant in the rail picture at all. People working in Waterloo do not long to live in downtown Toronto. That's farce.
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crs1026
Superstar
Absolutely true, but once Waterloo and Guelph have 2WAD GO, London will want it too. It just has to be explained to them in large-print, Readers' Digest style terms.
Waterloo's business sector has grown to the point wnere there are a healthy number of Torontonians who need to get to Waterloo on a daily basis for work. This may not be traditional 'commuting' in the sense of holding a 9 to 5 job in Waterloo and living in Toronto, but it may involve all day meetings, consulting or contract gigs, collaboration between universities, etc. There is a very definite market for commuter rail.
The jury is out on whether this needs to be 'High Speed' versus just reverse direction GO trains. Personally, given that it's a fairly short distance, I'd say it's the perfect place to try something that pushes the envelope on end to end travel time. I'm not suggesting TGV quality, but maybe 200 km/h line speeds for an overall travel time of an hour or less.
That kind of demonstration would get the more provincial thinkers (and London, for all its provincialism, is certainly influential) on board for how they might want Medium-High SR too.
- Paul
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Because that's the rail line KW is on. Please refer to the map I posted above. The main CN line from Toronto to Windsor spurs off a single track at Oakville towards London, stopping in KW enroute. So, we need a double line from Oakville on this network, at least as far as KW, but I'd think they'd consider extending it to London.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
That's me. I have once a week meetings near Baden. With training arriving at KW in the early afternoon and arriving back in Toronto near midnight, the service is simply useless.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I thought the Kitchener trains used the corridor that the KW GO trains use...which do not go through Oakville.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Have only been able to use VIA once to visit our K-W office because the principal reason for my going was to do after hours work (which meant the 9pm return service worked as well. I would visit much more often if I could get a 10am or earlier arrival in the 519, as I can for trips to London and Kingston. More still if there was VIA1 or the facility to use the lounge rather than stand in the gate area.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I don't understand this at all. The route through Oakville to London is Aldershot-Hamilton Junction, nowhere near Kitchener. The freight cross routes are not marked. Is it possible you're mistaking which dot is Oakville and which is Toronto?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
By jove you're right. Damn you small iphone screen and these aging eyes. Back to my main point, I don't think it's a huge project to add to rail capacity from the main CN line to KW.
ShonTron
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I agree it's years away, but it's not such a massive project. VIA already has the trains, track and stations. The project would thus entail installing double tracks between Oakville and London (needed in order to clear CN freight train traffic). AIUI, that's all that's needed.
This article, updated in June 2015, describes the need to double the track to make mroe frequent Kitchener traffic possible, http://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2102.shtml
That map isn't correct. Yes, there's one round-trip to Sarnia, but there are two trains between Toronto and London via Kitchener; one of those two trains continues to Sarnia. There used to be three (and two trains to Sarnia) before the cuts a few years ago that also eliminated the commuter-friendly Toronto-Niagara Falls trip.
It's geographically correct, but it's full of errors. How is Belleville, an important staffed station with at least a dozen trains stopping, marked as a minor station, when Strathroy, an unstaffed shelter, a major station?
ehlow
Senior Member
There are lots who live in Toronto who commute to Waterloo already, although probably less so now that BlackBerry has much fewer employees.
However, a better solution in my opinion is opening offices in downtown Toronto, which many Waterloo based companies have already done (ex. D2L). It's simply too far for a regular commute for many.
Also downtown Toronto's tech scene is getting really really good, at least from what I've seen, it seems as good as Waterloo, if not even better. I wouldn't be surprised to see downtown Toronto surpass Waterloo, if it hasn't already. Walk around King & Spadina and there are coding schools, and tons of loft style buildings filled with tech start-ups and some medium sized ones, and there are quite a few big ones scattered around the rest of down.town. Walk around, everywhere you look another tech startup which has received investment lately, restaurants & coffee shops filled with people working in tech. There are even apps specifically for getting lunch in the area.
Waterloo is a much more difficult sell to a younger workforce who want to live in an urban lifestyle and do things like see a sports game, see a music show, go to the beach, huge supply of walkable neighbourhoods & restaurants. Of course, it's an easy sell for those who want cheaper housing, prefer driving to public transit etc.
However, a better solution in my opinion is opening offices in downtown Toronto, which many Waterloo based companies have already done (ex. D2L). It's simply too far for a regular commute for many.
Also downtown Toronto's tech scene is getting really really good, at least from what I've seen, it seems as good as Waterloo, if not even better. I wouldn't be surprised to see downtown Toronto surpass Waterloo, if it hasn't already. Walk around King & Spadina and there are coding schools, and tons of loft style buildings filled with tech start-ups and some medium sized ones, and there are quite a few big ones scattered around the rest of down.town. Walk around, everywhere you look another tech startup which has received investment lately, restaurants & coffee shops filled with people working in tech. There are even apps specifically for getting lunch in the area.
Waterloo is a much more difficult sell to a younger workforce who want to live in an urban lifestyle and do things like see a sports game, see a music show, go to the beach, huge supply of walkable neighbourhoods & restaurants. Of course, it's an easy sell for those who want cheaper housing, prefer driving to public transit etc.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
If I knew anything about Ontario?.........sorry but I am a native Ontarians and spent my first 26 years there. Born and bred in Strathroy and London and went to school in Ottawa and Toronto. I go back fairly frequently and know the whole province extremely well.
London is a "tiny backwater"? London is a far more refined, urban, and beautiful city than KWC will ever hope to be. London is a true major city while KWC is, quite literally, 5 cities that sprawled into each other. How anyone from KW could consider London as "tiny" is anyone's guess.
A backwater? Well if not having an ugly freeway ripping the urban fabric apart is considered backwards then guilty as charged. This is why London has a far higher per-capita transit usage than KW..........it doesn't have gapping scars in the urban fabric but rather a solid built form where communities connect.
London doesn't have Waterlou's high-tech sector but then London is one of NA leading medical centres. London is a major centre for medical research and conventions. In fact London has the ONLY convention centre in NA that was built primarily for medical conferences.
Isolated? London is a regional centre that Kitchener will never be and is in fact becoming more of a Toronto suburb than an independent city as the days pass. London is the heart of SWO where as Kitchener is the heart of Waterlou.
London is a refined and liveable place where as Kitchener is an outer suburb in both form and mentality.
mpd618
Active Member
The more companies open offices in both Kitchener-Waterloo and Toronto, the more need there is for travel between the two cities, not less. If you have teams spread across the two sites, then sometimes they work better when they're in the same place; if you have separate teams then sometimes they need to meet to better coordinate.
But generally, having offices that close is a pain and comes potentially with more costs than benefits. IMHO, a KW company opening an office in Toronto is mostly a way of getting non-engineering talent that's hard to find in KW. Connecting the two cities with better transit makes the combined economy much more competitive with other tech areas, like Silicon Valley or New York. (Which is to say that whether people prefer Kitchener or Toronto isn't really the right question.) It means a company can get the benefits of a single office with a broader talent pool, whether it's in KW or in Toronto. It means start-ups in Kitchener can connect more easily with investors in Toronto.