Island airline gets cash from GE

[EnviroTO]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

There were flights to New York (Newark and White Plains) and other destinations before but all attempts by Air Canada, City Express, and US Airways failed to generate enough revenues to make it worthwhile. The likelihood of Porter surviving is equally remote.

 

[ganjavih]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

That's what competition is all about, and explains why Air Canada has become such a horrible airline

If the airline rated the best in North America is horrible, the industry must really be in bad shape.

The status quo for the currently useless island airport is not sustainable... either it has to increase service to become useful or shut down. And if Deluce is destined to fail, let him fail.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

Then why is Bomardier marketing it's aircraft on the basis of how quiet they are?

Bombardier's marketing of the Dash-8 series as quiet has nothing to do with the Island Airport or Porter. It's because they're trying to get airlines and passengers over the stigma of turboprop aircraft, which are percieved as inferior to jets.

Propellor planes might be quieter than jets from the outside, but as anyone who's flown in an Air Canada Dash-8 will tell you, they're damn loud on the inside. So Bombardier installed an anti-noise-and-vibration in the series, which, as I understand it, works much like those Bose headphones that emit white noise and counter-vibrations to counter what the engines are doing. Thus: the Q-series of quiet-on-the-inside turboprops.

The Q400, which Porter is buying, is a substatially new aircraft from what Air Canada flies, anyway. Beautiful machines, to my eyes. I wonder if Harbourfront residents who'll be seeing them 20+ times a day will feel the same way?

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

Please stop your racist ramblings.

Well said, sorry, yes that was racist, won't happen again. I will control my movie references. One of my favourite movie lines.

 

[GregWTravels]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

I live at Yonge and St. Clair and work downtown at a consulting company located at Bay and Queen's Quay, and have been at that company for the past 6 years. During that time, I personally have flown on average 50,000 miles a year, and many of my coworkers have flown the same. Some of my trips have been to close destinations like New York, Montreal, Columbus and Detroit.

I have never known anyone to fly out of the island airport. I think the issue is two fold. One, the volume of flights out of the island airport means that if there are delays or cancellations, you are SOL in getting a new flight in a timely manner. Second, worse comes to worst, you can always find a way to get to your destination from Pearson, even if it means flying to Chicago, Denver and Sao Paolo first. That is not an option at the island.

The island can't support the volume of flights that make it viable, at least not without really teeing off the neighbours.

Propellor planes might be quieter than jets from the outside, but as anyone who's flown in an Air Canada Dash-8 will tell you, they're damn loud on the inside. So Bombardier installed an anti-noise-and-vibration in the series, which, as I understand it, works much like those Bose headphones that emit white noise and counter-vibrations to counter what the engines are doing. Thus: the Q-series of quiet-on-the-inside turboprops.

That's all fine and dandy unless you are listening to "Phillip Glass' Symphony of Airplane Noise in E Sharp."

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

^ har!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And don't mock my beloved Philip Glass!

 

[GregWTravels]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

Damn, forgot about that Eno album! That would have been even funnier!!!

Next time, I'll be more topical.

 

[Mark Dowling]

A few comments on the Reuters article - no commercial flights currently operate to Toronto City since Jazz were denied access to the Porter terminal during refurbishment. (Wow, hasn't it been quiet since? No, I didn't notice either). "Protestor" Helen Kennedy? That would be "Candidate" Kennedy. :rolleyes

The Q400 is becoming much more popular with $70 oil - South African Express and Qantaslink have recently put some in service - Luxair signed for 3 + 3 options on the 20th. Flybe in England and SAS Commuter have a pile of them too. They had a cranky start (due to the more powerful Pratt & Whitney Canada engines) but seem to have settled down since.

Bombardier have recognised that below 500nm turboprops, being more fuel efficient, are outperforming jets which is why they have certified range extensions to their 70 and 90 seat jets and slowed production on the 50 seat. A Q400 can break even with about 37 seats full - full capacity on an Air Canada Dash 8-100 which used to plod from Toronto to Ottawa 70 knots slower (290kt vs 360kt). The extra speed means you can operate more sectors with the same aircraft.

The "island airport loses money, there aren't enough flights" argument is circular. I'm not surprised that Mark Hill has had a crack at Porter since Westjet's Clive Beddoe (who has had to admit Westjet accessed Air Canada flight data using ex-employee passwords) said passengers would be scared of props because they can see them whizzing around (???) 500nm range gets you as far south as Washington - plenty of airports in that radius Mr. Hill. I bet there's plenty of money for lawyers heading to Thunder Bay and Sudbury for instance.

For those who would like to see CYTZ become a park, it's a worthy ambition, sure don't we all like parks. However, it's been an airport since the 1930s. The TPA has recently installed runoff controls but that's still 70 years of airport ops. It now turns out that Richard Daley's vandalised Meigs Field in Chicago will cost a huge sum (on top of the FAA fines for the initial bulldozing) because when you tear up an airport you release all the jetfuel, antifreeze etc which soaked in back when nobody thought it mattered. There's a video report on CBS2 Chicago if you google around, it aired last november.

So making CYTZ a park certainly might be worth doing but it's going to cost several millions just to do remediation and remove the airport structures before you plant a single tree - not a "toonie".

Here's a suggestion - pay Bombardier to close Downsview and move production to a site with access to Pearson's runways (there was an opportunity when Boeing closed the 717 plant but I think Air Canada bought it) and transfer the Aviation Museum exhibits to Toronto City. Tear up Downsview which now gives you a massive addition to Downsview Park. Extend the Sheppard subway line to Downsview Station.

So you have two subway lines, a nearby GO line (the proposed Sheppard West station) and a huge empty parcel of land. Sounds like the kind of place you could put an Expo to me. A (truly) redundant airfield gets closed, airspace near Pearson is simplified, Don Mills-Sheppard to York U becomes 1-change, and if the Expo has all the ongoing benefits we're led to believe, the stubway might even start to earn its keep.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

Wow, hasn't it been quiet since? No, I didn't notice either

Jazz only flew one flight a day weekdays to Ottawa. Unless you live on Queens Quay west of Spadina or hang out at the waterfront on weekdays how would you notice? Do you live on the waterfront or hang out at the waterfront on weekdays when the flight operates?

The "island airport loses money, there aren't enough flights" argument is circular.

But it is a cycle that can't help but continue since the airport doesn't have enough space to handle enough flights (max 5 Q200s parked at any given time, probably less Q400s due to turning radius), doesn't have enough runway to handle larger aircraft, and doesn't have enough space to lengthen the crosswind runway to reduce the chances of weather related delays so there is no way the Island Airport could ever expect to get out of this cycle. Basically YTZ is in worse shape than Kai Tak... it doesn't have the space or support to be all that it can be without moving somewhere else.

It now turns out that Richard Daley's vandalised Meigs Field in Chicago will cost a huge sum (on top of the FAA fines for the initial bulldozing) because when you tear up an airport you release all the jetfuel, antifreeze etc which soaked in back when nobody thought it mattered. There's a video report on CBS2 Chicago if you google around, it aired last november.

Sounds very similar to the land clean up in the port lands where oil storage and the like will become a park. Maybe they can get the work done in a two for one special

Here's a suggestion - pay Bombardier to close Downsview and move production to a site with access to Pearson's runways

Use tax dollars to rebuild a factory as a better alternative to closing a money loosing airport on the waterfront? I don't the Downsview revitalization has as much sell as a waterfront revitalization.

So you have two subway lines, a nearby GO line (the proposed Sheppard West station) and a huge empty parcel of land. Sounds like the kind of place you could put an Expo to me.

As far as transportation it makes a decent Expo site, but as far as attractiveness of the site, waterfront revitalization, distance to downtown and its accomodations, etc the Downsview site is lacking. Waterfront revitalization is the big project all three levels of government are talking about and it is the one with financial commitments. Downsview is the one the federal government is talking about and is slow to deliver on. There is no cash from Toronto or Ontario committed to Downsview and with it being a federal park I wouldn't expect that there ever would be.

 

[cdl42]

"Jazz only flew one flight a day weekdays to Ottawa."

No, it was 4 flights a day.

 

[Mark Dowling]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

enviroTO - cdl42 is correct on Jazz - in fact I recall 5x daily timetabled fairly recently. The runway issue - look at Q400 performance figures updated on q400.com, funny how BBD came up with 70 passengers and 500nm - totally unconnected with Allan Sparrow's scaremongering I'm sure.

It's just a pity 06/24 can't be extended to 4000 ft and 08/26 deprecated for approaches from the west/takeoffs to the west as it would move the noise contour significantly away from the south lakeshore.

The issue with Q400 stands is more likely to be wingspan and tail overhang on the apron - I know there has been one doing approaches recently (presumably BBD doing predelivery testing for other customers?) but I don't know if they have done stand testing.

As for Downsview - I wouldn't treat it as an either/or, even if CYTZ was demolished I think moving BBD is still worth doing with the objective of creating an inland green lung like:
Phoenix Park, Dublin
Central Park, NY

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Next time, I'll be more topical."

Philip Glass' stuff is not ambient/white noise...monotonous, maybe, but no more so than "Hey Jude" or "Kashmir," perhaps even less so since it actually builds up some tension. Speaking of tension and Glass, and to accompany music for airplanes, an appropriate song for strolling through a hydro corridor would be "The Grid" from Koyaanisqatsi. And how 'bout "Escape to India" from Kundun for a ride on the 506 out past Greenwood?

 

[cdl42]

Re: Downtown Bulletin: Can Porker Air Really Fly?

Jazz resumes Island flights
thestar.com
Jul. 6, 2006. 10:13 AM
FROM CANADIAN PRESS

Air Canada Jazz (TSX: JAZ.UN) has announced plans to resume flying through the controversial Toronto Island airport.

The regional subsidiary of the country's dominant airline said Thursday that flights to and from Ottawa and Montreal will begin Aug. 28, "made possible by plans for improved access to the Island airport."

Jazz intends to fly 10 round trips to Ottawa and 7 to Montreal each weekday, plus weekend service.

Air Canada's flights to Montreal from the Island ended four years ago, and Ottawa service ceased this spring as Porter Airlines, a regional startup headed by entrepreneur Robert Deluce, took over the facility Jazz had been using at the airport.

Porter plans to begin its service in early fall, flying Bombardier Q400

70-seat turboprops to up to 17 short-haul destinations.

Air Canada Jazz now has arranged to operate from the Stolport Corp. facility on the island.

"Having served Toronto City Centre Airport for over 16 years, it is good to be back," stated Jazz president and CEO Joseph Randell.

"The new ferry service and facilities being constructed by the Toronto Port Authority starting this summer are making it possible for Air Canada to enhance operations from City Centre," added Ben Smith, Air Canada's vice-president of network planning.

The Island airport, adjacent to the city's biggest waterfront green space and overlooked by its battery of lakeside condominiums, has long been a civic political issue, with its operations deplored by local resident groups.

Mayor David Miller was elected in 2003 on a central promise to block a proposed $22-million bridge to replace the airport's ferry service, and the city has been at odds with the federally appointed port authority.

 

[frizzed]

Air Canada Jazz resumes Toronto City Centre/Ottawa service, adds flights to Montreal Air Canada Jazz resumes Toronto City Centre/Ottawa service, adds flights to Montreal

Written by Air Canada
14:04z - 2006/07/06

TORONTO - Air Canada Jazz will resume operations from Toronto City Centre Airport on August 28, 2006, introducing an enhanced schedule with more destinations made possible by plans for improved access to the island airport.

Air Canada Jazz will provide daily service between Toronto City Centre Airport and Ottawa, and will also re-instate service to Montreal. On weekdays, Jazz will offer ten round trips to Ottawa and seven round trips to Montreal. Weekend service will also be reintroduced to both Ottawa and Montreal.

"Having served Toronto City Centre Airport for over 16 years, it is good to be back and we look forward to welcoming Air Canada's customers on board. As a result of the increased demand for Jazz's services, we'll also grow the number of employees at this base," said Joseph Randell, President and CEO of Air Canada Jazz.

"The new ferry service and facilities being constructed by the Toronto Port Authority starting this summer are making it possible for Air Canada to enhance operations from City Centre. This will further improve what is already the best schedule for customers flying in the eastern triangle of Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa," said Ben Smith, Vice President Network Planning, Air Canada. "With the City Centre Airport, Toronto Lester B. Pearson International Airport and our Jazz service out of John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport, customers traveling to and from the Greater Toronto Area and the Niagara Peninsula will have unrivalled choice and convenience. They also have the option to use our unique multi-trip flight pass products, collect Aeroplan Miles and enjoy all the other benefits of flying with Air Canada Jazz and Air Canada."

Air Canada Jazz will operate from Stolport Corporation's facility at the Toronto City Centre Airport. Shuttle service will be available to transport passengers between the airport and Union Station.

Mr. Randell and Mr. Smith will hold a joint news conference at 10 a.m. today in the Alberta Room at the Fairmont Royal York in Toronto to discuss this announcement and related matters.

"We are pleased to re-establish the link to Toronto City Centre Airport with Montréal-Trudeau after a four-year absence, this has always been a popular destination," said James Cherry, President and CEO, Aéroports de Montréal.

"The Ottawa market is a vibrant one, as evidenced by Air Canada Jazz's decision to resume flights to Toronto's City Centre Airport. Once again, the community will benefit from more options when they make their travel choices, the Ottawa Airport welcomes the return to service to the Island," said Paul Benoit, President and CEO of the Ottawa International Airport Authority.

Air Canada Jazz, and its predecessor Air Ontario, has been serving Toronto City Centre Airport since 1990. Combined with Jazz operations in Hamilton and Air Canada flights from Pearson Airport, customers have a choice of up to 132 flights daily to and from the Greater Toronto Area between Ottawa and Montreal.

Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz operate more non-stop flights within Canada and to the United States than any other airline. Within Canada, the carriers operate approximately 960 non-stop flights per day on 131 routes to and from 67 airports. Between Canada and the United States, the carriers operate more than 390 non-stop flights per day on 89 routes to and from 51 U.S. and 7 Canadian destinations.