CDL.TO
Moderator
Do you really think that all the intellectual elite are career-focussed and/or nerds? I don't think that generalization is even remotely valid.
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Is university education becoming too common?
- Thread starter theowne
- Start date
Do you really think that all the intellectual elite are career-focussed and/or nerds? I don't think that generalization is even remotely valid.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
I didn't say that all the intellectual elite were all career-focused nerds, but I do think those types would be more attracted to university if high school Calculus marks of 98 or higher were what permitted entry, making university even more competitive and dreary. Everyone rolls their eyes when directionless people are there just to learn more about themselves, but universities need some of these people.
theowne
Active Member
Actually I'd kind of like it if university was filled with only career focused nerds.
tempperm
New Member
U wouldn't like a university whose student body counts a few rich and/or directionless students?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
No matter what, the only way to reach a point where universities are filled with people who "should" be there or to make an undergrad degree count on its own is to slash enrollment.
With the current setup, it's the kids in university for the experience or just to get a "BA required" job that enable the "intellectually elite" to get the grades necessary for grad school.
With the current setup, it's the kids in university for the experience or just to get a "BA required" job that enable the "intellectually elite" to get the grades necessary for grad school.
Transportfan
Senior Member
It's because back in the 80s, high schoolers were told to go on to university to get a good job. So many more did, so the corporate elites began demanding university education. So today, the only result was that young people have to waste (Yes for many, basically waste) a lot of time and money to get accredited for its own sake.
To make matters worse, since so they needed the education anyways, many decided to take the business/law courses that actually do often give them good jobs, with the result being the contruction/trade/repair worker shortages we see today. Not to mention the loss of freedom in certain things and higher insurance costs due to the excessive litigation that excessive numbers of lawyers brings.
vicente
New Member
As I mentioned before, we should separate undergraduate schools from research-oriented grad schools. In this way, universities can specialize as either research institutions or primarily undergraduate four-year colleges. In this way, undergraduates can enjoy a better education because they will be at places where faculty are specifically hired to teach, whereas in many large research schools like U of T and UBC, professors often are hired primarily for research and teaching is a second afterthought. Also, by separating undergraduate from graduate/research, research institutions can continue to maintain an environment of enlightened and scholarly thought, instead of being the late 20th/21st century's new high schools, complete with frat boys, goofballs, and dumb blondes who are only here for a good time and the piece of paper they need to get a job after.
We need to create more liberal arts colleges for undergraduates, like Acadia and St. Francis Xavier on the East Coast. In addition we need more graduate/ research institutes like the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo.
We need to create more liberal arts colleges for undergraduates, like Acadia and St. Francis Xavier on the East Coast. In addition we need more graduate/ research institutes like the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Yes...creating a higher tier is the only way for those who will inevitably end up in the bottom half of the class at the research/professional-oriented school to have a future. Currently, it's the dumb blondes and goofballs you mentioned who soak up many of the Cs and Ds, letting more ambitious students get the As and Bs. Harvard can give an A to every student if it wanted so there is no bottom half of the class, but it and other top universities have already been split off of the community and state colleges that enroll the vast majority of students. Schools like U of T or UBC would need to be far smaller and pickier for every graduate to be respected.
King of Kensington
Senior Member
Saw this in a google search...so why not revive this thread 2 years later?
I like Vicente's idea of liberal arts colleges, but it's not likely to happen in days of economic constraints. The US is full of excellent ones, like Amherst, Bard, Earlham, Grinnell, Hampshire, Oberlin, Reed, Sarah Lawrence, Swarthmore, Vassar, etc. However these are very expensive private schools, though there are a few public liberal arts colleges such as Evergreen State and the New College of South Florida.
I like Vicente's idea of liberal arts colleges, but it's not likely to happen in days of economic constraints. The US is full of excellent ones, like Amherst, Bard, Earlham, Grinnell, Hampshire, Oberlin, Reed, Sarah Lawrence, Swarthmore, Vassar, etc. However these are very expensive private schools, though there are a few public liberal arts colleges such as Evergreen State and the New College of South Florida.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
One group that has decided to pass on university is males. Look at any campus and except for engineering and mathematics every program is female dominated, especially anything arts or humanities based, but also medicine, law, veterinarians, etc, etc.
And I don't buy into the dogma that males just can't get into university, or that they're all failing to get the grades, or are lazy or unmotivated. Sure, there's a lot of lazy males living in their mother's house well into their 20s, but a huge number of young guys I know went straight from high school into either trade schools, apprenticeships or to skilled trades. One of my best friends is a tower crane operator, he's in the union, has job security, group pension, as is paid over $75K a year with overtime. He's been at it since the mid-1990s, meanwhile it took me a decade to get a good salary working in an office, with no job security (though thankfully a DB pension). If I was a early 20 something male the only reason I'd pursue a BA would be to meet girls For the money and career you want skilled trades.
And I don't buy into the dogma that males just can't get into university, or that they're all failing to get the grades, or are lazy or unmotivated. Sure, there's a lot of lazy males living in their mother's house well into their 20s, but a huge number of young guys I know went straight from high school into either trade schools, apprenticeships or to skilled trades. One of my best friends is a tower crane operator, he's in the union, has job security, group pension, as is paid over $75K a year with overtime. He's been at it since the mid-1990s, meanwhile it took me a decade to get a good salary working in an office, with no job security (though thankfully a DB pension). If I was a early 20 something male the only reason I'd pursue a BA would be to meet girls
For the money and career you want skilled trades.JayBee
Senior Member
Why all the Ryerson hate? :d
Personally, I think some degrees should not be 4 years. I always saw my electives as a waste of time. In addition, a lot of the courses I took (ITM) were and still are things that I have never used to date.
Personally, I think some degrees should not be 4 years. I always saw my electives as a waste of time. In addition, a lot of the courses I took (ITM) were and still are things that I have never used to date.
NikoS
Active Member
Yeah why is there so much negative comments towards Ryerson?
Education is important but not a substitute for experience or capabilities. Students, to get the most out of their education, should look beyond what is taught to them, and reflect and expand on that knowledge based on their interest. In my opinion, that is what's missing. The self direction, the initiative to make it be.
Where you receive your education should reflect the intention of your career, mentors your need, and the peers that can teach you and you too can teach.
Education is important but not a substitute for experience or capabilities. Students, to get the most out of their education, should look beyond what is taught to them, and reflect and expand on that knowledge based on their interest. In my opinion, that is what's missing. The self direction, the initiative to make it be.
Where you receive your education should reflect the intention of your career, mentors your need, and the peers that can teach you and you too can teach.
Eug
Senior Member
If I had any kids (I don't), I'd probably be royally pissed if they didn't want to attend university.
As far as I'm concerned, university education in itself is experience. A different kind of experience, but an experience. That said, I don't like these ultra-focused academia-stream BAs and BScs since they limit the overall "experience". I've told many people entering university to grab as wide-ranging an education as possible, as long as they can fulfill their credit requirements for the degree. In fact, I think the electives are probably one of the most important part of the degree. Someone in a science degree could stand to benefit from an art history course, or a language course, or whatever.
It's a lot easier to have that expansiveness that NikoS is talking about if one isn't overwhelmed with 5 different esoteric math courses or whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, university education in itself is experience. A different kind of experience, but an experience. That said, I don't like these ultra-focused academia-stream BAs and BScs since they limit the overall "experience". I've told many people entering university to grab as wide-ranging an education as possible, as long as they can fulfill their credit requirements for the degree. In fact, I think the electives are probably one of the most important part of the degree. Someone in a science degree could stand to benefit from an art history course, or a language course, or whatever.
It's a lot easier to have that expansiveness that NikoS is talking about if one isn't overwhelmed with 5 different esoteric math courses or whatever.
Eug
Senior Member
University students actually learn very little: study
Researchers analyzed transcripts and surveys of more than 3,000 full-time students on 29 campuses, and standardized tests that graded their critical thinking and writing skills.
Here were the main findings, based on a book called Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses: nearly half the students showed no big gains in learning - even after four years, one-third showed no more than marginal progress. They also spent 50 per cent less cracking the books compared to their peers decades ago.
Ironically, that study was done through a university.
Researchers analyzed transcripts and surveys of more than 3,000 full-time students on 29 campuses, and standardized tests that graded their critical thinking and writing skills.
Here were the main findings, based on a book called Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses: nearly half the students showed no big gains in learning - even after four years, one-third showed no more than marginal progress. They also spent 50 per cent less cracking the books compared to their peers decades ago.
Ironically, that study was done through a university.