Is LRT's repuation damaged permanently?

[ksun]

Guess you don't use the Davisville or Rosedale subway stations. They're not enclosed. Many other lines in the world are the same way.

I am aware of this, but they are not that appealing to me in the winter.
There are many cities with open subway stations, true. But few with equally cold and long winters as Toronto. NYC is winters are much milder. Even there are, I am sure people would prefer weather proof indoor stations. For Toronto, it is uncomfortable to stand outside for probably 4 months a year.

Of course that's not the main point. The main point is speed (traffic lights and spacing).

 

[W. K. Lis]

I am aware of this, but they are not that appealing to me in the winter.
There are many cities with open subway stations, true. But few with equally cold and long winters as Toronto. NYC is winters are much milder. Even there are, I am sure people would prefer weather proof indoor stations. For Toronto, it is uncomfortable to stand outside for probably 4 months a year.

Of course that's not the main point. The main point is speed (traffic lights and spacing).

Is Chicago milder than Toronto?

Having said that, I do hope that they have better weather protection including heated platforms to melt the snow.

 

[ksun]

Is Chicago milder than Toronto?

Having said that, I do hope that they have better weather protection including heated platforms to melt the snow.

The entire station doesn't have to the enclosed, but there should be a weather protected resting area for passengers.
I was traveling in Shanghai this summer, and noticed that most of their above ground subway stations have an air conditioned waiting room with glass walls/doors. In the heat of 38C, it is nice not to have to stand in the hot air in wet a shirt waiting for a train.

We should have such heated waiting booth are major streetcar stations as well. Try imagine waiting for a 501 at Queen and Spadina today!

 

[The Golem]

Guess you don't use the Davisville or Rosedale subway stations. They're not enclosed. Many other lines in the world are the same way.

The Danforth line in Scarborough (Victoria Park station to Kennedy) is mostly above ground...like an LRT. I actually prefer it to being stuck in a dark subterranean tunnel.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Danforth line in Scarborough (Victoria Park station to Kennedy) is mostly above ground...like an LRT. I actually prefer it to being stuck in a dark subterranean tunnel.

I agree. Better for the roof to fully enclose the surface stops. But then, it might be considered "gravy" by some to give transit users even a little comfort. Especially if the complainers don't use transit.

 

[Rainforest]

According to my observations, strong sentiments against LRT exist only in corridors that might get a subway. Once local activists feel they can get an upgrade to subway, all kinds of arguments against LRT come out.

In the corridors that clearly do not qualify for a subway, the reaction to LRT is mildly positive.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Some people may dispute this.

Los.

That site is hilarious. *check out the alternatives to LRT page!

The straddling bus returns!

 

[LNahid2000]

Most CTA platforms have heat lamps, which work quite well.

http://voices.suntimes.com/news/tra...-season-cta-turns-on-all-platform-heat-lamps/

 

[ehlow]

This.
The need to wait for traffic lights and more importantly tight spacing is why I am lukewarm about the LRT (and transitcity for that matter). We need rapid transit, and Eglinton in my understanding, will not be rapid. I have never seen another city with equally tight spacing between subway stations, not to mention our streetcars. Paris with several times of our density doesn't seem to space their stations that tight.

And also, I am not in favour of a system where people will wait in the open or semi open stations for a train to arrive, considering how cold and long our winters are. The stations have to be fully enclosed and heated in the winter. Otherwise, it is a NO for me as it reduces the comfort dramatically and will force people to drive a car instead.

Firstly, the Paris metro DOES have very tight stop spacing. Most in the central area are 300-500 meters (check Google maps, it's also pretty clear if you ride it in person). Of course that's appropriate for dense urban central Paris. It's also similar Their metro is also very narrow like the LRV's by the way. Downtown Toronto is also about 500m as it should be.

Much of central Eglinton is fairly urban, with apartment buildings, streetcar suburbs and storefronts similar to most parts of Bloor/Danforth like High Park, Greek town. Therefore I think stop spacing similar to Bloor is appropriate, ~600m. Local and medium distance matters as much as regional.

Having said that I'm OK with a few of the East surface stops being removed, but there will be public opposition.

I don't think waiting for a traffic light is as much of a disaster as many who oppose at-grade ROW transit. Firstly, it seems like the average traffic lights spacing is further apart on Eglinton East vs say Spadina. Secondly there will apparently be traffic light sync. Thirdly, I don't think slowing down for a limited amount of time occasionally is a huge problem. On the Yonge line, going North past Sheppard, the trains always stop in the middle of the tunnel for 10-30 seconds, several times, waiting for the next train. Going south at Davisville, there is a slowdown due to track issues.

In my opinion, transit enthusiasts often over-estimate the importance of speed, and under-estimate the importance of frequency, reliability & being protected from traffic. I've had people tell me that the St. Clair streetcar "is basically a subway", because it's protected from traffic. This is especially true as traffic gets worse and worse.

Finally the thing about being outdoor vs indoor: people have already pointed out Rosedale or High Park station, also look at Viva's BRT stations. They are surface at-grade stations with heated enclosures. Also I will point out most people currently start their trip on a bus waiting outdoors.

 

[mpd618]

Some people may dispute this.

As Adjei noted, it's getting built. Utility relocation is underway currently, vehicle contract has been signed, and the full DBFOM contract will be awarded in early spring (bids are due this month). Yes, there's another wave of misinformed opposition; it isn't the first, nor is it it representative of public opinion (it's only representative of the letters to the editor demographic). Also they pretty hilariously dismiss the LRT as "old" and out-of-date while plastering attractive and modern LRT images all over their site.

If the ridership numbers are accurate, it is hard to believe that their LRT would have more ridership than Pittsburgh LRT which is a city over 2 millions citizens.

It shouldn't be hard to believe for a couple of reasons. Pittsburgh's lines are CBD to low density suburb, while the Waterloo Region line is along a linear mixed-use urban corridor in a relatively compact region. To that end, the iXpress 200 bus (LRT precursor, introduced in 2005) is currently at 13000 daily riders, and the more frequent local Route 7 has about the same amount. Meanwhile development is being funneled / funneling itself quite nicely to the LRT corridor, and the bus network is being restructured to a grid that will primarily rely on the LRT line (and parallel corridors) rather than a central bus terminal for transfers.

 

[ehlow]

As Adjei noted, it's getting built. Utility relocation is underway currently, vehicle contract has been signed, and the full DBFOM contract will be awarded in early spring (bids are due this month). Yes, there's another wave of misinformed opposition; it isn't the first, nor is it it representative of public opinion (it's only representative of the letters to the editor demographic). Also they pretty hilariously dismiss the LRT as "old" and out-of-date while plastering attractive and modern LRT images all over their site.



It shouldn't be hard to believe for a couple of reasons. Pittsburgh's lines are CBD to low density suburb, while the Waterloo Region line is along a linear mixed-use urban corridor in a relatively compact region. To that end, the iXpress 200 bus (LRT precursor, introduced in 2005) is currently at 13000 daily riders, and the more frequent local Route 7 has about the same amount. Meanwhile development is being funneled / funneling itself quite nicely to the LRT corridor, and the bus network is being restructured to a grid that will primarily rely on the LRT line (and parallel corridors) rather than a central bus terminal for transfers.

Also, the two universities give quite a boost to iXpress/7 ridership, which they will for LRT as well. Hopefully KW respects contracts & vehicle orders more than Toronto . Looking forward to going to St Jacob's market, riding the KW LRT, then going to Heuther's for some schnitzel in in 2017.

When I went for coffee in Matter of Taste coffee in downtown Kitchener years ago, I was amazed to see photos of streetcars running down King St in Kitchener back in the Victorian era. It's cool that >100 years later the we're building LRT down the same street.

 

[ksun]

Firstly, the Paris metro DOES have very tight stop spacing. Most in the central area are 300-500 meters (check Google maps, it's also pretty clear if you ride it in person). Of course that's appropriate for dense urban central Paris. It's also similar Their metro is also very narrow like the LRV's by the way. Downtown Toronto is also about 500m as it should be.

I have traveled to Paris.
Paris has 2.2M people living on an area equivalent to the area in Toronto bound by Eglinton, Keele, Lakeshore and Woodbine, which has probably 1/4 to 1/3 of Paris' population. So the fact Paris has 400 meter spacing is not exactly a good reason why Toronto should do so. We are completely not comparable in density.

The distance from King/St Andrew to Queen/Osgood is 300 meters.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Stations in Toronto that don't provide too much weather protection:

Rosedale
Davisville
Eglinton West
Lawrence West
Glencairn
Yorkdale
Wilson
Warden
Victoria Park
Keele
Kipling
Kennedy (RT portion)
Ellesmere
Lawrence East
Midland
Scarborough Centre
McCowen


essentially any surface stop. most of those are "indoors", but still provide huge holes for trains to get in and out, which in turn allows for snow and cold inside. It is not odd to see it snowing inside stations such as Yorkdale.

Never mind other stops with large open air entrances to the street or that are close to tunnel exists that are often well below 0 degrees, if not snowing. People will wait an average of 1 minute and 30 seconds for their train on the LRT lines, provided you brought a coat, hat, and some mitts, I think any sane person could easily withstand even the maximum amount of time of 3 minutes. Even then, concerns could easily be solved by having indoor waiting areas like on the VIVA busways.

 

[ehlow]

I have traveled to Paris.
Paris has 2.2M people living on an area equivalent to the area in Toronto bound by Eglinton, Keele, Lakeshore and Woodbine, which has probably 1/4 to 1/3 of Paris' population. So the fact Paris has 400 meter spacing is not exactly a good reason why Toronto should do so. We are completely not comparable in density.

The distance from King/St Andrew to Queen/Osgood is 300 meters.

I never claimed that Toronto was comparable to Paris. I only said that your statement:

Paris with several times of our density doesn't seem to space their stations that tight.

is incorrect. Paris does have stations "that tight". It is very tight throughout the whole central system.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't think enclosing the stations is that big a deal if the trains run every 2 or 3 minutes. Toronto isn't that cold but a small enclosed area like Calgary's CTrain or Winnipeg's RT would be a welcome respite in January.

Eglinton has far too many stations especially considering it is not a downtown route and there is limited options for high TOD due to the street already being nearly filled out. It should be grade separated using elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy so the trains can run more frequently, have higher capacity, be cheaper to run due to automation, and be far more reliable. Even one little bottleneck along any at grade section brings the entire system to a screetching halt. A transit line is only as dependable as it's weakest link.