Insufficient Sidewalks Downtown

[SunriseChampion]

Are you calling Jane Jacobs weak? There's something to be said for "eyes on the street."

Oh boy - more cops on horses, and more horsesh*t to avoid! Awesome!

Dude, Yonge Street may not yet be healthy enough for pedestrian only. I'd prefer to close down Queen West to TTC, pedestrians and bikes before trying Yonge.

Ok, coppers on bikes and foot then.

Queen West was my other choice, so I'm down with that.

Would you agree with a phase-in then?

 

[junctionist]

Pedestrianization of parts of Queen West definitely should be considered if there's a plan for a subway line on the street. Queen attracts enough creative types to make it interesting, and the restaurants and cafe could flow onto the streets nicely.

 

[nfitz]

As for crowds on sidewalks only during a parade. Not true. There's always events happening at Dundas Square...

I didn't say that there were crowds only during parades. I said the only time I've felt crowded is during parades or something. Events at Dundas Square would be something. And I've certainly been in Dundas Square many times when there was nothing happening - so I'm not sure how you say that there is always events happening - that is as much as a mistruth as if you'd said there are never events happening.

If your going to sit there and just point out that what I wrote is not correct, you should actually respond to what I wrote, and not some fictionalized version of it. And you should not make such obviously untrue claims in response!

 

[dunkalunk]

Have any of you been to boulevard de Maisonneve in Montreal? If the idea to make traffic on yonge one way goes forward, there is no reason why there couldn't be widened sidewalks and a bike way built. Check out this video of some guy riding on the bikeway. (turn off the sound and skip around to get the jist, unless you like the annoying commentary). Or, put the bikeway on Bay, and drastically widen the sidewalks on Yonge.

 

[confusion]

I like the idea of a bikeway on Bay. There is enough space and not enough traffic on Bay to warrant this. The most important thing for Yonge in my opinion is not trying to do too much. Just make the sidewalks wider and go from there.

 

[MisterF]

Ok, coppers on bikes and foot then.

Queen West was my other choice, so I'm down with that.

Would you agree with a phase-in then?

"Eyes on the street" doesn't mean cops on bikes. It means passive surveillance. That can be round the clock pedestrian traffic, doors and windows opening onto the street, and vehicle traffic. These things do far more to make a street "feel" safe than any number of police.

The most successful pedestrian streets tend to be relatively minor streets that aren't used as vehicle thoroughfares, and not more than a block or two long. London has dozens of pedestrian streets that fit that description, but big shopping streets like Oxford have vehicle traffic. Most of the big main shopping streets in cities around the world have car traffic. Closer to home, the most successful pedestrian street in Ottawa is the one block of William St that's closed to traffic, while the longer Sparks St is widely considered to be a failure. In Toronto a good example is Market St beside St. Lawrence Hall.

Yonge should definitely have wider sidewalks but it's not a good candidate for pedestrianizing. I'd even be skeptical of Queen. Start thinking about pedestrianizing or woonerfing Yorkville, Kensington Market, or John St and you'd be on the right track.

edit: speaking of Queen, a lot of that street could use wider sidewalks too.

 

[ShonTron]

Queen at least has the advantage of 24-hour surface transit service, which would have to be maintained if it were pedestrianized, but John Street and Kensington are perfect examples.

I'll also add Prince Arthur Street in Montreal as a successful pedestrian street, hung off of busier St-Laurent. Not even in the old cities of Quebec and Montreal are cars banned for more than a few little side streets.

Dunkalunk: I mentioned de Maisonneuve on Page 1!

 

[realtycoon]

Every year the downtown core of Toronto gets denser with pedestrians.

I think this is a good thing, however infrastructure for pedestrians does not seem to be keeping up.

Certain streets in Toronto I believe are hitting a tipping point, and could serve to deter people from choosing the healthier and better way (not the TTC, I'm talking about walking).

The main street that worries me the most is Yonge Street. I believe this is a street that demands 1 or 2 lane reductions and wider sidewalks. There is no reason really for anyone to drive on Yonge. Anyone who lives here knows better than to take this route since the traffic is already hampered severely because of people trying to turn and pedestrian flow stopping them. So there is obviously no warranted argument in regards to traffic congestion.

So why does Yonge Street not have wider sidewalks? Everyone I have ever talked to can't understand why so much priority is given to the car on the busiest pedestrian street in Toronto.

Does anyone else have other streets that they feel are insufficient for the amount of pedestrian traffic in the downtown core and feel the city should take some initiative? Queen West maybe?

David Miller is too busy with his bike lanes to worry about sidewalks!

 

[valkoholic]

The reason the sidewalks are narrow on Yonge between Gerrard and Dundas is there hasn’t been any development that would allow for increased building setbacks. The Aura project will include wide sidewalks on the west side of Yonge Street north of Gerrard. When the area south of Gerrard gets redeveloped the sidewalk widths will be increased.

I’m not sure how adding bike lanes to Yonge Street would help pedestrians. Bikes and pedestrians don’t get along very well.

 

[confusion]

I can understand your point, but the fact is, not all parts of Yonge are going to be in the same situation as Aura and get wider sidewalks. For example, the development at Yonge and St. Joseph which plans to incorporate existing heritage structures. These structures aren't going to be moved back, so there will always be choke points on Yonge.

New development or not, at least a meter needs to be added to either side of Yonge's sidewalks.

 

[confusion]

Queen sidewalks

The above comment about Queen being a woonerf is a good one, but I would rather see the parking taken away and given to the sidewalks on Queen.

A very small percentage of those who shop on Queen actually drive there. Businesses would probably get more sales through higher pedestrian traffic.

 

[dunkalunk]

I like the idea of a bikeway on Bay. There is enough space and not enough traffic on Bay to warrant this. The most important thing for Yonge in my opinion is not trying to do too much. Just make the sidewalks wider and go from there.

Exatctly.

 

[Paleo]

Right ... how many people have been killed due to such an event in the last 20 years? Yonge street has always been very crowed - maybe not Y&D in particular but there's always been a few locations that have been.

I seem to recall a tourist from overseas being (fatally) pushed into the path of a TTC bus on Yonge from a few years ago.

 

[jaycola]

Hmm, I'm thinking if (OK, when) there is a subway delay on the Yonge line (accident, injury, mechanical) it could turn into a commuter nightmare with relief buses if the delay was in the opposite way of vehicular traffic.
So much for that idea.

In times of emergency or increased need for special events, one lane on the one way routes could be converted to "Transit only" and turned in the opposite direction from traffic.

 

[Northern Light]

Wider sidewalks

Ok, everyone take a deep breath.

Wider sidewalks and new sidewalks are on their way all over Toronto, including downtown, and likely Yonge, though not for a couple years yet, in the last case.

Approved:

York Street North of Front to be narrowed by 1 lane (to 2 lanes) to accommodate a much wider sidewalk on the west side. This will be done in conjunction with the north-west PATH expansion project from Union Station, likely in 2011 or so.

Similarly, Front Street, in front of Union Station is to become a pedestrian-dominated 'plaza'. There will still be taxis; but traffic will be severely restricted.

Also the widening of Jarvis Street sidewalks and boulevards is slated for summer/fall 2009. This will occur with the removal of the current 'switch-lane' in the middle of the road.

The City already has an approved program to building sidewalks on both sides of every arterial road and one side of every side street in the City, minimum, and on both side of a side street if residents support it.

These projects with a few exceptions will be done as roads come due for reconstruction/resurfacing.

A notable new sidewalk is on its way on Victoria Park Avenue, west side, from Denton to Crescent Town Road, as part of the Victoria Park Station overhaul.

***

As to Yonge, the City's director of Transportation Services, openly indicated in the media last year that the City is informally mulling over narrowing Yonge to 3 lanes through the downtown. There is no EA scheduled for this project right now. It most likely will appear in the plans sometime after 2010, which if miracles happen, means the City might be working on it by 2013.

Personally, I favour going to a 2-lane Yonge Street model. I think this would accommodate an average 1.5 M widening of each sidewalk, and allow a bike lane on each side of Yonge as well.

This strikes a nice balance between the various modes of transportation.

***

Missing sidewalks that I think are priorities, and more do-able than Yonge (no big EAs to do)

East York Industrial Area: Bermondsy
Leslie, west side, Eglinton to just south of Lawrence.
Guildwood Parkway, south side, east of Morningside (waterfront trail route)
Yonge St. west side, from 401 to York Mills Road.

And for those who want these or other projects to happen, don't just complain here; tell your local councillor you want to see it happen; a phone call or email from a constituent can accomplish much. Get no service from them, phone/email the Mayor.