scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The original poster listed two things when asking for one.
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If you could change one thing about Toronto, what would it be?
- Thread starter greenleaf
- Start date
The original poster listed two things when asking for one.
Glen
Senior Member
IIRC commercial zoning does not permit places of worship. The reason they are frequently found there is simple economics. The land/buildings are dirt cheap.
Cranky Old Fart
New Member
Hmmmmmmmm if I could change one thing about Toronto, what would it be ?
I'd love to remove the Greater Toronto Area from the Province of Ontario & have Toronto bequeathed Provincial Staus or at the very least be given the powers of a Province thus freedom from 1 layer of Government, bring policy decisions & power closer to the citizens that live the day to day realities.
The City of Toronto & the Greater Toronto Area send more in Tax Dollars to both Queens Park & Parliament Hill than we ever receive back in services. Barely anything can be accomplished in this Metrolpolis decade after decade due to layers of beauracracy, political infighting etc. etc.
This system of Governening we are saddled with was created over 140 years ago in an era before Automobiles, planes, modern telecommunications. It doesn't work today it hasn't worked for decades !
Toronto Freedom NOW !
I'd love to remove the Greater Toronto Area from the Province of Ontario & have Toronto bequeathed Provincial Staus or at the very least be given the powers of a Province thus freedom from 1 layer of Government, bring policy decisions & power closer to the citizens that live the day to day realities.
The City of Toronto & the Greater Toronto Area send more in Tax Dollars to both Queens Park & Parliament Hill than we ever receive back in services. Barely anything can be accomplished in this Metrolpolis decade after decade due to layers of beauracracy, political infighting etc. etc.
This system of Governening we are saddled with was created over 140 years ago in an era before Automobiles, planes, modern telecommunications. It doesn't work today it hasn't worked for decades !
Toronto Freedom NOW !
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
No, it's not just simple economics (proper city-building never is). Neighbourhoods are no longer planned with places of worship in mind, so they must locate where they can find room. A few tiny congregations may be able to lease storefronts or convert houses, but larger ones cannot. It was easy integrating these places into communities when only a small number of Christian denominations were building churches, but it's not as easy now, and the city needs to deal with it in ways that don't just run them out of town. Even if places of worship had free rein in terms of zoning, there's no guarantee mega-developments like the Portlands - let alone mega-developers like Concord or Tridel - will plan for them or that any will actually get built on Avenues, it can't be done without taking the first step of reexamining zoning and parking policies. They need lots of land for cheap surface parking, but they need much of this parking because of their inaccessible locations...the city should interfere with this circular dilemma.
greenleaf
Senior Member
I know this board well enough that everyone would have plenty to say. Keeping it to one is tough!
adma
Superstar
Actually, the impetus behind the redo--a literal "egghead" (follicularly speaking), Councillor Peter Milczyn--was all for removing the walks. Then the heritage and architectural community stepped in and stopped him dead in his tracks on that count.
They certainly didn't seem "useless" last time I actively experienced them (kibbitzing the Olympic torch run)--heck, the threat to their existence probably helped give them new life by forcing the City to reopen them, etc...
Towered
Superstar
Re-opened? Everytime I've passed by they've been blocked off.
TonyV
Senior Member
Yup, the egghead(s) I referred to were from the heritage and architectural communities. Other members of the architectural community (Jack Diamond, for one) have favoured taking the damned things down. Presently the City has reopened them, but I'll bet that they'll become derelict again within ten years after the renovation.
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TonyV
Senior Member
I know it's tough!
It's a SUPER post, quite possibly the very best one on this forum. I'll bet that a few city councillors check these ramblings out regularly.
It would be more fun if members posted with one item at a time, on a frequent basis -- the "sound bite" approach really works.
Hopefully everyone will keep this one alive.
Glen
Senior Member
Interesting that you dismiss the economic argument then go on and make an economic argument. Of course we won't see any large Institutional Places of Worship in the Portlands. Nor will we see any on the old Kodak lands. Concord, Tridel and other developers have little interest in selling land for a fraction of what it is worth relative to residential development. As you said, the institutions need cheap land. Even on the Avenues, served with higher level transit the economics do not work. I wouldn't worry about running them out of town though. Toronto's industrial space is much cheaper (predictably) than surrounding municipalities. Which explains why Toronto has a much higher proportion of such converted space.
Tewder
Senior Member
So you would turn Toronto into an isolated island? As a surrounding municipality the first thing I would do is charge enormous transit duties into and out of your island, huge transport charges, and lure away business and immigration through the availability of cheaper land, homes and greater job opportunities. Heck, it may not work but I'd sure as hell try. Besides, relative to other more prosperous parts of the province there are probably just as many in the 416 drawing from the 'system' as contributing to it anyways...
And what a celebration of good will and provincial spirit you advocate, that we all turn into ourselves and screw our neighbours such that the fittest survive and the rest may freeze and starve in the cold. Makes the heart swell with pride...
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Cranky Old Fart
New Member
An isolated Island ? We would still be part of Canada. I would invite the surrounding municipalities of Durham, York, Peel, Halton & Hamilton to join. Last time I saw figures 25% or so of annual immigrants to Canada settled in within the GTA good luck luring. Good luck luring away business when under mty proposal I've done away with one layer of Government, it's bureacracy & it's taxation. As for more drawing from the system within the 416 than contributing you are patently wrong in your assurtion.
As for goodwill & provincial spirit LOL the GTA is under represented compared to the rural population in both Queen's Park & Parliament Hill & more taxes leave the GTA than ever comeback in terms of services. The Greater Toronto Area's population of 5.3m+ (larger than 6 Provinces & 3 Territories) with a labor force of 3.1m. The GTA's GDP totals approximately $264B, or about half of Ontario's, the same as Quebec & larger than every other Province & Territory in Canada.
A GTA with Provincial Powers would be able to have it's own Lotteries, Casinos, LCBO, Income Tax, Sales Tax, a Transit System that made sense, an Educational System that made sense etc. etc.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
I said it's not just simple economics. Interesting that you're not capable of seeing a difference.
They only need cheap land because they need lots of parking since they're only built in inaccessible places...that's the loop that the city could interfere with. Planners used to allot sites for churches but don't bother planning for them as community fixtures anymore...it's too difficult with the rise of so many denominations. Part of it is also placing less value on religious buildings these days - the city wants the Avenues filled with low-rise condos and retail and that's what will get built. The city is also building its own community and social safety net and doesn't often see religious buildings/services as key players in this process. All of this could be changed.
We do need to worry about running them out of town because our empty land is virtually gone. Even if it costs the city money to get religious buildings closer to neighbourhoods or to consolidate municipal and religious parking structures or whatever, these costs are outweighed by the benefits to city-building, to placemaking, to the health of communities, etc. We already do this with schools and parks.
kettal
Banned
I've yet to encounter those walkways open to the public, but they do have their use: homeless people love sleeping under them.
adma
Superstar
Beyond Jack Diamond and (originally) Peter Milczyn, I don't know of a particularly powerful pro-takedown consensus out there that wouldn't be tyranny-of-the-majority-ish.
And better an egghead than a Sunday Painter Urbanist amateur like you. Sorry.