Hume: City Building; Vancouver vs. Toronto

[janschot]

Vancouver Transit

I just got back to my home in New York from a four day visit to Vancouver.
After spending several days in Portland and Seattle, it was pretty depressing to realize that they had a Canadian city beat on several transit quality metrics. The most serious drawback to Vancouver's system, especially for a visitor, is that there are no route maps or schedules at any of the bus stations. I would arrive at a bus stop and have no idea when the next bus would arrive or where it was going. In fact, complete system maps only seem to be posted at a few SkyTrain stations. Because there are no fare-takers at the SkyTrain stations, I only found one place in the city to get a fold-out system map - at the downtown tourist information kiosk. The most hilarious part was that I had to pay for the map! It was $1.99 printed on the map, $2.17 with tax. Hilarious.
Luckily I wasn't in a rush to get anywhere so I could wait the completely unknown amount of time it would take for the next bus to show up, so I approached these serious drawbacks with a laugh.
On the other side, Translink provides a quality trip planning system online, as does Google Maps, so if you have access to a computer with internet when you are planning your transit trips for the day, you can plan adequately. There are also five-digit (I believe) numbers posted on the bus stops which you can enter into the Translink automated phone system. I assume these will tell you the time of the next bus (although not the map). Unfortunately this is not helpful to those, like me, who do not have mobile phones. There were rarely payphones close to the bus stops.
Sorry that this wasn't planning-related.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Are you implying the transit infrastructure right now consists of only 6kms of rail transit?

No. I think it's pretty clear that I'm not.

Isn't already having something for a long time better than just getting it?

Not if they will have more of it.

Are you beginning to see the flaw in your logic here...or at least my perspective?

My logic is that their system will soon be longer than ours and they built it in less than half the time. My perspective is that we have really rested on our laurels wrt transit expansion in the past 22 years.

Is that a trick question?

No.

Since Skytrain is more like a mini GO Train, serving a mostly suburban commuter service, I wouldn't even put it in the same category as TTC subways in the first place....we have it...they don't.

Yeah, the GO train is a standalone electric metro system that runs at 2 minute headways throughout the day with station spacing that varies from every 4 km to 300 metres.

They do have a version of the GO train called the West Coast Express, though.

Secondly, the name of the game in transit is not he who has the most track wins. Toronto doesn't need to build subways over hill and dale to do the job more effectively.

I sincerely wish they did, though. I think that targeted subway expansion (which is a thought that is routinely quashed by "transit advocates" in this city) would help transit immensely more than our current Transit City plan.

That hybrid commuter mini-train thingy probably is the best they can do given the fact they have a tiny little urban square mile peninsula with the rest of the place sprawled out low density suburbs.

Some low density suburbs for you:

North Vancouver

Burnaby

New Westminster

 

[Calrissian]

I got to say, when you break it down into raw numbers, just by volume, its pretty easy to tell that Toronto moves more people via its modes of transit than Vancouver and its modes. Even by 2010, they won't be moving more people than TO.

And once GO steps up its service improvements, and TTC's plans are realized (hopefully), there will be even more people.

And IMO, a crosstown Eglinton LRT that runs underground from Leaside to Black Creek is basically a subway anyway.

 

[adma]

The most hilarious part was that I had to pay for the map! It was $1.99 printed on the map, $2.17 with tax. Hilarious.

Something seems very Western Canadian about that, in a Fraser Institute/ReformAllianceConservative neo-Calgarian way...

 

[ShonTron]

Or just like Kitchener, or London (ON) or San Francisco, or Gatineau, or Ottawa, or Guelph; all places where one must purchase the transit map.

 

[taal]

Is it just me or does Burnaby look like a less dense version of NYCC?
The whole everything on one street

 

[Redroom Studios]

Hipster Duck: just wanted to let you know that there is someone here who appreciates your rational thoughts and arguments. I am definitely on your side, though since i have never been to Vancity I cant really get in on that part of the argument. I think that first pic of North Vancouver really illustrates a great example of the style of urban building that really works and looks beautiful.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

Is it just me or does Burnaby look like a less dense version of NYCC?
The whole everything on one street

Very similar, with Kingsway filling in for Yonge.

 

[BoGoWo]

Torontouver; vs Vanoronto

agreeing as almost always with Chris Hume, i am always trying to push TO in the direction of giving its developers something to aim for, while being able to know the rules, and work within them.

TO seems to always want to appoligize for anything exceptional that it accomplishes; e.g. The ROM Crystal, the OCAD TableTop.

 

[Hydrogen]

Or just like Kitchener, or London (ON) or San Francisco, or Gatineau, or Ottawa, or Guelph; all places where one must purchase the transit map.

Though they can often be found for free at City Hall information counters.

 

[maestro]

Their design review panel may be a bit dogmatic, but it has largely prevented crimes against urbanity like one-story LCBOs from gracing high Victorian commercial strips or 50-storey condo towers from planting their feet in "designated" historic neighbourhoods.

umm ... entire inner city neighbourhoods with the most hideous, "special" housing on the continent is a direct result of the city's planning policy. And, c'mon, a one storey LCBO is still better than 25+ years as a parking lot. Unfortunately, our central city is just too big and development too dipersed even for the rapid pace of intensification

 

[officedweller]

Lots of pics of the Canada Line construction here (another line to the suburbs (with a branch to the airport)):

http://canadalinephotos.blogspot.com/

Here's a map of the long term plan for rapid transit in the region:

Here's a good Global Air Photo showing downtown Richmond in the foreground, the airport, downtown Vancouver in the background and Metrotown (Burnaby) (halfway along the Skytrain Expo Line) off to the upper right. You can see the Canada Line in Richmond and the branch to the airport.

Here's another Global Air Photo from 2007 that pretty much tracks the Skytrain Expo Line from Surrey through New Westminster, Edmonds Town Centre, Metrotown and you can see downtown Vancouver in the distance (BC Place stadium)

This pic tracks the Skytrain Millennium Line from Brentwood Town Centre (North Burnaby) to downtown Vancouver:

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Tour de Vancouver

First of all, this whole 'it rains in Vancouver' rumour can be put to rest. One week, 7 sunny days, while Toronto has its wettest June/July EVER! Wow.

I was downtown for work for three days, one day on Galliano, two days in White Rock. Things I now know (or think I know)...

Yaletown/False Creek/Downtown/Coal Harbour and its vaunted design review is a load o' crap. Generic point towers, some beautiful, some not. Yaletown was one very cool street, but otherwise nothing much (sort of a loft/industrial version of Baldwin, actually). IMHO, Coal Harbour or the wild 'n' weird '70s buildings with the fabulous views of Stanley Park are much, much nicer.

With the notable exception of how close you are to Grouse/Cypress (& of course Whistler/Blackcomb), West/North Vancouver are pretty suburbs but not more. I prefer the vibe of Kitsilano/Point Grey and the UBC campus. West 4th is way better as a dining/shopping experience than the touristy Granville. And White Rock is a nice place for old people.

Water is *&^%$ COLD! What's the point of having an ocean that beautiful if you can't swim in it?

I enjoyed my visit, and the Olympics will do wonders for Vancouver (the Canada Line by itself will be a huge win), but I still prefer Toronto. Maybe just because it's home, but I don't think so -- prefer the more multiculti vibe and less laidback atmosphere.

Cheers.

 

[Dan416]

And IMO, a crosstown Eglinton LRT that runs underground from Leaside to Black Creek is basically a subway anyway.

No

 

[CDL.TO]

No

Why no?