Highway 401 Widening - Cambridge Area (MTO, Proposed)

[LRGM]

I would think that once the Highway 7 bypass connecting Guelph and Waterloo is built, that the 6 would be upgraded

Agreed.


On a separate but kind of related note, the Province it seems is very reluctant to rename any of the recently upgraded highways to 400-series designations. Highway 8 in Kitchener has yet to be renamed to 408, and recently-completed (yes, it's finally done as of about 2 months ago), 4 lane upgrade of Highway 7 between Ottawa and Carleton Place is still Highway 7, and not 407. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

I wonder if they don't want to rename it the 408 until they complete the westbound ramps to 401 west to London. I'm really not sure though.

As for renaming Hwy 7 from Carleton Place.... I don't know if they would bother naming it that when it's probably not going to connect to the existing 407 in the GTA for manyyyyyyy years. And that part isn't a toll road so, it may be confusing? Again, just speculating this on my own.

 

[MisterF]

-The 403 and QEW have a 3 general purpose lanes and 1 HOV (25% ratio) and you see backup on the general lanes while the HOV lanes are underutilized.

No they're not. Whenever I've been on the QEW in a trafic jam the HOV lanes are jammed as well. Eventually they'll get to the point where only buses are allowed in those lanes.

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/roadbuilding-futility.html

adding lanes does not help traffic, it makes it worse. 'if you build it, they will come'. or am i wrong here? I want some science, anyone got any science?

You're right, just think about the principle of supply and demand. There's been a lot of study on this topic but MTO likes to ignore it. Google "induced demand" or "induced travel" and you'll find a lot of information.

For this section of the 401 I can see 8 lanes, but 12 would be a complete waste of money and horrible planning. The province should be beefing up rail service in this section of the province. With the density of Southwestern Ontario it's perfect for European levels of rail service. How often do you see 12-lane monster highways in Europe? It's not going to happen though, Ontario likes to talk about shifting away from auto-dominated infrastructure and land use planning, but the suburban mentality is very strong here. Especially in the civil engineering field.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, the section of 6 north of the 401 is some bizarre Frankenstein between an at-grade expressway and a full 400 series highway. Not that I mind it though, it's much better to drive on that 6 South. I would think that once the Highway 7 bypass connecting Guelph and Waterloo is built, that the 6 would be upgraded, if nothing else because it would become the main travel route between 7 (or 407, depending on how it's classified), and the 401, much like Highway 8 is in Kitchener now.

If the new 7 is ever built, I'd think they'd have to do something with the Hanlon (new 6, aka 6 north), or else it would be completely overloaded. Though I'm not sure that 6 north (Hanlon) is better to drive on that 6 south (401 to 403). At least the south bit moves ... on the Hanlon it often seems to take forever to move at that slow speed limit, hitting every traffic light, and often seems congested. Lately travelling from Guelph to Toronto I've just been heading east on Speedvale to Guelph Line.

On a separate but kind of related note, the Province it seems is very reluctant to rename any of the recently upgraded highways to 400-series designations. Highway 8 in Kitchener has yet to be renamed to 408, and recently-completed (yes, it's finally done as of about 2 months ago), 4 lane upgrade of Highway 7 between Ottawa and Carleton Place is still Highway 7, and not 407. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

Those new highways aren't particularly long, with most of the alignment still the same. And with 8 in Kitchener, what do you do at the Conestoga Parkway? The Conestoga has 3 different numbers; 7-8 west of 8. 7 between 8 and 85. And 85 north of where 7 heads to Guelph (with 85 turning into Regional Road 85 while still an expressway). Which piece do you call 408? It's hardly recent though ... it's about 25 years since Highway 8 was finally upgraded all the way from 401 to 7. I'd say if it's not broke, don't fix it.

 

[gweed123]

If the new 7 is ever built, I'd think they'd have to do something with the Hanlon (new 6, aka 6 north), or else it would be completely overloaded. Though I'm not sure that 6 north (Hanlon) is better to drive on that 6 south (401 to 403). At least the south bit moves ... on the Hanlon it often seems to take forever to move at that slow speed limit, hitting every traffic light, and often seems congested. Lately travelling from Guelph to Toronto I've just been heading east on Speedvale to Guelph Line.

If it was built to near 400 series standards (which I believe it was), there should be enough room in the median to add one lane in each direction. I would imagine that that would be a sufficient size to act as a connector. I think a pretty good indicator of what size would be needed would be the two "connector" highways being built as part of the 407 East Extension. If those highways are only built out to 6 lanes, then 6 lanes should be sufficient in Guelph, given the population.

Those new highways aren't particularly long, with most of the alignment still the same. And with 8 in Kitchener, what do you do at the Conestoga Parkway? The Conestoga has 3 different numbers; 7-8 west of 8. 7 between 8 and 85. And 85 north of where 7 heads to Guelph (with 85 turning into Regional Road 85 while still an expressway). Which piece do you call 408? It's hardly recent though ... it's about 25 years since Highway 8 was finally upgraded all the way from 401 to 7. I'd say if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Ideally, what I'd like to see, and this is a pretty big long shot, but I figured I'd try to explain it anyways, is this:

1) The Province buy back the part of the 407 that runs from the 407-403-QEW interchange in Burlington to the 403-407 interchange in Mississauga, as well as the short connector piece of the 407 that runs N-S between the 401 and the 403. Re-designate those highways as what they were originally supposed to be.

2) If a straight buy-out is too expensive, work out a deal that the Province build a new west extension to the 407 from the current 401-407 interchange to just east of Guelph, and do some sort of a swap for it. This would have the 407 continue west instead of dip south in the weird zig-zag that it currently does. As of just east of Guelph, it would become a publicly-owned toll highway through Guelph and on to Kitchener.

3) Once it reaches Kitchener, it would connect with the Conestoga Parkway, and become a non-tolled public highway. The majority of the Conestoga Parkway would be designated as 407, with the connector between the 407 and the 401 as the 408. The section north of where the 407 would connect with the Conestoga Parkway would stay as Highway 85. As for the free vs un-free thing, think of the Mass Pike. Through the City of Boston, it's a free highway, but right after leaving the city, it becomes tolled.

This is all part of the larger vision that I have to create an 'Ontario Turnpike', using the 407 as that route, eventually running from Stratford to Ottawa (although admittedly not for a long time would the two segments actually connect).

 

[nfitz]

If it was built to near 400 series standards (which I believe it was), there should be enough room in the median to add one lane in each direction. I would imagine that that would be a sufficient size to act as a connector. I think a pretty good indicator of what size would be needed would be the two "connector" highways being built as part of the 407 East Extension. If those highways are only built out to 6 lanes, then 6 lanes should be sufficient in Guelph, given the population.

Currently, the Hanlon only needs 4 lanes. It's the relatively closely spaced traffic lights that cause the issue. Sure, any new structures over the highway should be built for more. Not sure how much it will increase if they build new 7 from Kitchener to Guelph.

As for renumbering ... not sure why it matters what they number it. What they were originally supposed to be? 410 was supposed to keep going down Cawthra to QEW with 403 going down Eastgate to join the 401 at 427. In the west, 403 was supposed to go where 407 now goes to Burlington, and 407 was supposed to go south from 401 directly to QEW. A later iteration simply had 403 in Mississauga renumbered as 410, with 403 only being the highway that starts heading west from QEW in Burlington.

I don't see any need to mess with it again ... except perhaps in Kitchener, where the whole 7-8/7/85 thing just confuses everyone. Maybe the simplest answer there is just remove the number entirely, and call the loop expressway Conestoga (or perhaps number the entire thing 85) and the one down King Street as Highway 8.

Doesn't really matter how they number it ... doesn't make the drive any faster.

 

[Dan416]

I think numbering does matter though. To people like me it's only a highway if it has a 400-series number

 

[nfitz]

To people like me it's only a highway if it has a 400-series number

You must find it frustrating driving when you leave the province ... or drive on the QEW.

 

[gweed123]

You must find it frustrating driving when you leave the province ... or drive on the QEW.

I do see what he's saying though... In the US you know it's a highway when it has an Interstate designation, and in Quebec they have a reverse numbering system from what we do (expressways are single or double digits, and other provincial highways have 3 numbers).

The only places where it gets confusing are in the Maritimes and out west, where there really is no adopted standard for distinguishing.

 

[nfitz]

I do see what he's saying though... In the US you know it's a highway when it has an Interstate designation

Many expressways in the USA aren't interstates, but are state highways. Don't see how it's any different than here.

 

[Dan416]

Personally I would just never expect a one or two digit highway in Ontario to be built to 400-series standards and not have a 400-series designation (minus the QEW). You don't expect Highway 10 to be a 4-lane divided highway.

 

[nfitz]

Personally I would just never expect a one or two digit highway in Ontario to be built to 400-series standards and not have a 400-series designation (minus the QEW). You don't expect Highway 10 to be a 4-lane divided highway.

Off the top of my head, there are chunks of 6, 7, 8, 11, and 17 that are 4-lane divided highways; and there was a chunk of 2 that was as well, before it got downloaded. I don't get this exception thing. Why the need to put everything in a box?

 

[gweed123]

Off the top of my head, there are chunks of 6, 7, 8, 11, and 17 that are 4-lane divided highways; and there was a chunk of 2 that was as well, before it got downloaded. I don't get this exception thing. Why the need to put everything in a box?

Because what's the point in having a classification system if it's only arbitrarily applied?

I dunno, maybe it's just the way I am with this kind of stuff, but I like to everything everything organized and categorized. If it's a controlled access highway with a minimum of 2 lanes in each direction, to me it should carry a 400 series designation. I like having a uniform classification system, with as few 'exceptions' as possible.

Personally I think the US Interstate System makes a lot more sense than the Ontario system. It just seems so much more systematic and less arbitrary. If the expressway portion of Highway 8 were in the US, it would be an Auxiliary of the 401, with an odd first digit in a triple digit number. There would be no confusion as to where it leads, because Auxiliaries always rejoin with their Primary (with the rare exceptions of those connections that were never built).

 

[Transportfan]

The plans on the EA website show the new highway 6 south exiting at a new partial interchange about 1-km west of the existing 6 south interchange (which will also see significant changes - with eastbound traffic from the 401 entering and exiting at a new roundabout about 100 metres east of the existing, and to be removed, 6-south.

Why not just link the two 6's directly together and eliminate the need for a 12-lane 401 between the existing ones?

 

[MisterF]

Off the top of my head, there are chunks of 6, 7, 8, 11, and 17 that are 4-lane divided highways; and there was a chunk of 2 that was as well, before it got downloaded. I don't get this exception thing. Why the need to put everything in a box?

The 115 too, plus municipal highways in Toronto, Windsor and Hamilton. A numbering system that makes more sense would be good, but this is the same province that downloaded most of its road system to municipalities. I can't think of anywhere else in the world that operates that way.

 

[nfitz]

A numbering system that makes more sense would be good, but this is the same province that downloaded most of its road system to municipalities. I can't think of anywhere else in the world that operates that way.

Many of the A and B roads in the UK have been downloaded to municipalities. However they still maintain a centralized numbering and signing scheme. They even downloaded the Motorways in Scotland and Wales. The reason you don't notice though is that it's seamless.