Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[rdaner]

Late to the game but has decking been considered instead of tunnelling? Maybe less disruptive/expensive?

 

[Leo_Chan]

I have no evidence, but Ford did say "anything and everything is on the table."

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Ford needs to appeal to his car loving base. Even the 401 widening isn't good enough for Ford Nation.

If Ford was more open to having another expressway parallel to the 401, and not being fixated on just the tunnel it would help his credibility. It would show that he's looking at other options to alleviate traffic in the GTA or the 401. I think more people would take it seriously and be more willing to bring in ideas.

But to have decade long construction project underneath the busiest highway is asking for it to be cancelled by any means necessary. And that's not including the cost and the eventual cost ballooning.

I actually hope Carney declines this request by Doug. That way Doug can either focus on other alternatives for the 401. Or he can look like a lame duck on the issue. The Sheppard line could save face if Carney declines. Which could be the blessing in disguise and a alternative.

Though what benefit would a suburban highway parallel to the 401 give to drivers heading to the city?

If the goal is to divert through traffic off the 401 and onto some other route, than there is the 407. Yes yes it's tolled but there are ways to mitigate that.

How much time savings would another highway in the north give. Say, for example if the 413 were extended east to the 412/407 junction. Would that really save time for someone travelling through the GTA?

 

[micheal_can]

I have no evidence, but Ford did say "anything and everything is on the table."

At least a decked highway makes some sense. It is also expandable at a relatively low cost. My fantasy highway thinking is a decked highway that only has exits for other highways. That would really make it express.

 

[rdaner]

Decking is really common in Japan/Asia. Also, does Ford see The Boring Company as doing this?!

 

[nfitz]

I have no evidence, but Ford did say "anything and everything is on the table."

I believe there was text somewhere about studying options. I have to wonder if expropriation and widening may be a cheaper way to add another 4 lanes.

 

[TossYourJacket]

Late to the game but has decking been considered instead of tunnelling? Maybe less disruptive/expensive?

Oh god, the last thing this city needs is a hideous decked highway running 16 lanes wide wide through the middle of it. Don't give him ideas lol.

 

[TossYourJacket]

I believe there was text somewhere about studying options. I have to wonder if expropriation and widening may be a cheaper way to add another 4 lanes.

And those lanes will do nothing to reduce congestion because of induced demand (neither will the tunnel tbh, but at least it's out of sight). So you'd just be making the highway even more of a barrier through the city while accomplishing nothing.

 

[nfitz]

And those lanes will do nothing to reduce congestion because of induced demand (neither will the tunnel tbh, but at least it's out of sight). So you'd just be making the highway even more of a barrier through the city while accomplishing nothing.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I'm just sayin'.

 

[Rainforest]

Late to the game but has decking been considered instead of tunnelling? Maybe less disruptive/expensive?

Not a bad idea .. as in "if we must have this bad investment, then at least let's cut the cost".

But, then one needs to deal with multiple interchanges, where the cross streets and the access ramps run above the existing 401 lanes. Either rebuild the whole interchange, or raise the new lanes above everything.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Not a bad idea .. as in "if we must have this bad investment, then at least let's cut the cost".

But, then one needs to deal with multiple interchanges, where the cross streets and the access ramps run above the existing 401 lanes. Either rebuild the whole interchange, or raise the new lanes above everything.

A solution I proposed a few years ago was to deck over the express lanes. EB above WB or vice versa and leave the collector lanes at level. This would limit the changes needed to interchanges

 

[innsertnamehere]

Couple of notes:
1. Yes, the study MTO procured included "reviewing all options along the corridor""

• Examining various options to increase Highway 401 capacity, including potential routes within the existing right-of-way, number of lanes, length, and the number and design of interchanges connecting to other highways;
• Refining the province’s understanding of the proposed tunnel’s economic contributions, both in the short- and long-term, as well as the project’s impact on reducing gridlock;
• Reviewing best practices from similar projects in other jurisdictions;
• Conducting initial soil boring testing to improve the province’s understanding of the route’s geology and its impact on design and construction;
• Preparing to start the environmental assessment processes for the project; and
• Conducting an initial market sounding, with feedback informing any potential procurement and commercial structuring strategies.

2. There is precedence for similar scale urban decked freeways - I think this process could work for between the 427 and 409 for example, which may limit the tunnel to only be east of the 409. Dallas completed a decked collector-express system about a decade ago on I-635:

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[ARG1]

I'm surprised Ford hasn't suggested central Etobicoke to Queen's Park

I'd honestly take that over this, since at least that's a new alignment that would speed up new trips rather than just "add more lanes" to existing corridor (not to say this is a good idea, but I think it would be preferable).

That being said, how many roadway projects are there that would both be cheaper than this tunnel, and could easily be popular to many people? I know @Northern Light mentioned that the MTO has a laundry list of highway projects, surely those would be quite popular, and would also have the benefit of being more targeted towards parts of the province he could possibly win votes in.

For me personally, something I would love to see happen is a reversal of many of the downloads that occurred under Harris in the 90s. Local politicians who were saddled with the cost of maintaining many of these roadways have basically been begging for the province to take them back since the 90s - and having driven on some of them, they are often in ROUGH shape. That and it could also help fix many OCD destroying discontinuities that confuse those that are unfamiliar with the highways such as Highway 9 in Orangeville, Highway 7 in York/Peel, and many others. You don't even need to reupload all of them, just some of the core ones that are important to intertown/city travel such as Highway 14 would provide so much bang for the buck.

 

[innsertnamehere]

What is frustrating to me and what ARG1 touches on is that MTO has many widening projects around the GTA that they could get done quite affordably and which could make a huge difference in congestion without touching the central part of the 401.

Even if Ford spent 2-3 billion on them it would go a very long way to addressing capacity issues.

off the top of my head:

1. QEW - Brant St to Burlington Skyway - fully funded to allow for the extension of the HOV lane to the Burlington skyway minus one bridge. Would result in significant congestion relief for a cost of maybe $20 million. Not funded.
2. QEW/403 - Trafalgar to Winston Churchill. No structural requirements, literally just a bit of paving. Structural widenings were all completed in 2020. Probably a fairly straightforward, ~$100 million contract. Not funded.
3. QEW widening - Stoney Creek to St Catharines. Only a small number of bridge widenings (no replacements) required around Lincoln. Much of it is literally already paved. Ford promised funding during the election but it has not appeared in MTO's program.
4. 401 - Milton to Cambridge - most bridge and structural works along here have been completed or are in the 3-year construction program. Less low hang fruit than others and given the distance it would be expensive, but really not any major barriers either.
5. 400 widening - Newmarket to Barrie - All structural replacements will be underway within the next 12 months. much of the corridor is already paved and ready to go. Widening would only require a small number of bridge widenings. Not funded.
6. 410 Widening - Clark to Sandalwood - MTO recently completed this study. Needs no structural work but would address severe congestion on the 410, which serves as the primary access road to the fastest growing part of the 905. Not funded.
7. 401 Salem to Bloor St in Oshawa - all structural replacements to enable this widening will be underway next year and would address a key capacity crunch. Not funded.
8. QEW - Dixie to Mississauga Rd - a 4th lane or HOV is planned here. Would not require any structural replacements (though it would be tight under Cawthra), but would need a few service road realignments. All major structural issues are addressed with the credit river bridge and Dixie Rd interchange replacements. Not funded.

Ford has not provided additional funding for a new highway widening project in the GTA in his entire time as premier beyond funding the Highway 400 widening from King Road to Highway 9. He's been premier for 7 years and loves to talk about highway expansion, yet has greenlit only one major capacity expansion project in the GTA in his entire time in office.

The reality is that his government has not substantially increased MTO's highway funding at all, and has instead redirected the limited expansion capital spending the Liberals provided (which built things like the 401 widening through Mississauga, 427 extension & widening, 404 HOV extensions, etc) to his new corridors, the Bradford Bypass and 413. The Bypass was not on MTOs radar at all pre-PC government, and the 413 while supported by MTO was considered more of a long-term corridor that they were undertaking planning to ensure land protection, but had not envisioned construction starting until the 2040's.

Basically he has instead of expanded highway spending in the GTA, simply redirected the funds from more useful widening projects to instead spend on larger scale new-corridor projects. These projects have sucked up capital dollars for land purchases and design while relatively cheap and much "quicker win" widening programs sit on the shelf for years.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

The truth nuke on congestion in the GTA is simply that Canadians need to embrace toll roads like a proper developed nation.

We have a massive backlog of projects which @innsertnamehere has touched on above, meanwhile the province has the worst subnational debt in North America and it is growing quickly.

At some point we will have to come around to reality: choose between opening the roads up to private players or enter a debt crisis to fix congestion in the GTA.

Luckily, I don't think the 401 express tunnel moves forward without being tolled in some form. Especially if the Major Projects Office becomes involved. Carney has been very clear on using the office to direct private capital, rather than primarily public funds.