High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[TOareaFan]

Right, exactly like how the Sheppard subway's the busiest subway on earth because it's right next to the 401.



I'm sure the land use impacts arising from the 1,000-4,000 daily travellers will be extensive and significant.

it needs more than that (way more) to reach the 6 million projection.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

I added the names of the communities that were not marked onto the map Glen presented today for reference.

I know to make HSR work properly you can't stop everywhere, but I know Stratford will be pissed that they are overlooked in the new ROW plan. They have wanted GO service for a while, as they have had massive VIA cuts. It would especially help with getting people to the Shakespeare festival in the summer. The new ROW plan is literally in the middle of farmland. Expropriation will not go over well with the people of rural Ontario. Overall I am very excited about the prospect of the fastest HSR on the continent.

 

[ehlow]

Brampton should rebrand itself as "Canada's innovation capital: home of digital solutions network incubators" and just wait for the HSR stations.

lol. I know you were being sarcastic, but many cities do try to brand themselves that way, ex. Markham saying they are "Canada's High Tech Capital" or something similar.

I personally think the only ones getting real recognition internationally (and in Silicon Valley, or famous NYC venture capital firms) for being a good place to invest in tech startups are Waterloo & Toronto.

 

[diminutive]

it needs more than that (way more) to reach the 6 million projection.

Which is a completely unsupported number from a Minister with a history of wild exaggerations. The entire Via system gets less than 4 million riders a year, in the entire country.

FWIW, the Eurostar service between Paris (larger than Toronto) and London (very much larger than our London) only recently topped 10m/year.

 

[mpd618]

If it is not for commuters.....really 6 million people a year a) make that trip ocassionally and b) really a lot more than that because no matter what we think transit, any transit, only gets a minority subset of total trips.

No matter what? That's easy to say when transit is much slower than driving, and not frequent. Neither is the case for this proposal.

Right, exactly like how the Sheppard subway's the busiest subway on earth because it's right next to the 401.

Oh, come on. The traffic on the 401 has a lot to do with travel between London, KW, and Toronto for which conceptually good rail service could be competitive.

I'm sure the land use impacts arising from the 1,000-4,000 daily travellers will be extensive and significant.

First, it's quite a bit more than that for their projection. Second, it depends on whether they are commuters or not. I don't think the fares will make daily commuting all that feasible. However, the demand for really good occasional access along this line would definitely have a large boost to the attractiveness of residential and office uses in downtown Kitchener and London. A company that has an office in downtown Toronto and is considering an office in Kitchener would definitely care about locating close to the line, for example.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's no different than expropriation for a new highway, which is done all the time.

Sheppard is a local corridor that serves local needs, HSR serves the types of trips made on the 401 unlike the Sheppard subway. Even then. The Sheppard subway serves roughly 1/3rd of the daily trips made on the 401 beside it.

As for stops, the current stop spacing is already rather close. 3 stops in 150km is quite a few, HSR usually has a single stop in that distance. (Thus the hour to travel it) the 6 million projection is believable if regional rail is implemented along side it as connections to the GTA would be much better.. Considering they are projecting 3 million annual riders for the UPX, it's not unbeleivable that 6 million would use the HSR. 30 minute service would mean that you could go from, say, Pickering to London in 1:50 or so. From Vaughan to London in 1:40. Richmond hill to Kitchener in 1:25.


I'm truly amazed that as soon as something comes up on this forum for outside of Toronto it immediately gets shot down. Highway expansion is bad, we should build rail. But then when rail is proposed to a point where it could actually have a significant impact, it's disregarded as waste.

 

[TOareaFan]

No matter what? That's easy to say when transit is much slower than driving, and not frequent. Neither is the case for this proposal.

Why do so many people make +/- 45 minute drives from, say, Oakvile into DT? Train is faster and is quite frequent.

 

[TOareaFan]

View attachment 25488

I added the names of the communities that were not marked onto the map Glen presented today for reference.

I know to make HSR work properly you can't stop everywhere, but I know Stratford will be pissed that they are overlooked in the new ROW plan. They have wanted GO service for a while, as they have had massive VIA cuts. It would especially help with getting people to the Shakespeare festival in the summer. The new ROW plan is literally in the middle of farmland. Expropriation will not go over well with the people of rural Ontario. Overall I am very excited about the prospect of the fastest HSR on the continent.

Wow the place I live really needs a media/pr boost...not only did it no make it onto "Glen's" map...it did not make it onto the map of the commuities not marked on Glen's map

 

[rbt]

Most of that vaunted tech sector workforce in Waterloo will never have any reason to use this shiny new line, and neither will most of the 5MM+ people in the GTA who face a crappy commute every day.

Exactly what %age of the population do you think normally uses HSR on a frequent basis? Even in countries with very good systems, it's about the same as flying.

There is usually a very tiny %age which uses such systems extremely frequently. If you're not that person, you won't see the point. Thankfully, the EA will do a better job of identifying the potential passenger load than personal anecdotal can.

 

[mpd618]

Why do so many people make +/- 45 minute drives from, say, Oakvile into DT? Train is faster and is quite frequent.

Because if you need to get in your car just to get to the train station, just driving the whole way is pretty attractive. Oakville doesn't have any walkable density near the GO station. And that's an interesting contrast with Kitchener and London, which have walkable density around the station, interest in growing that (Kitchener has that, at least), and frequent local transit that connects more of the city to the downtown intercity station area.

 

[ShonTron]

FWIW, the Eurostar service between Paris (larger than Toronto) and London (very much larger than our London) only recently topped 10m/year.

Does that figure include the London-Brussels leg, or just the Paris leg?

 

[TOareaFan]

Because if you need to get in your car just to get to the train station, just driving the whole way is pretty attractive. Oakville doesn't have any walkable density near the GO station. And that's an interesting contrast with Kitchener and London, which have walkable density around the station, interest in growing that (Kitchener has that, at least), and frequent local transit that connects more of the city to the downtown intercity station area.

So, in your estimation, this line will take a number approaching 100% of the London - Toronto or KW - Toronto trips when built?

I picked Oakville out of a hat but the same could be said of any stop along the LSW corridor.....there are (very) significant numbers of people who despite having access to frequent and quick rail service make the daily choice to drive downtown. I am not saying they are making a rational choice, but it is a choice that people make and will continue to make.....so my assertion would be that this line will have to achieve that 6 million riders from something less (perhaps significantly less) than 50% of the total trips between the cities involved....so, are there 12 million + making that trip regularly?

 

[rbt]

FWIW, the Eurostar service between Paris (larger than Toronto) and London (very much larger than our London) only recently topped 10m/year.

That's not a commuter corridor, and is both a long and expensive trip. Even the cheap seats are in the $150 CAD range with first class hitting $450/500 CAD.

If we really can build this thing for $500M, and really can sell tickets for $40 for London to Toronto (very affordable alternative for students) this thing will have decent ridership.

The $500M pricetag is about 1/4th of what I would have expected so I'm looking forward to seeing the details.

 

[mpd618]

So, in your estimation, this line will take a number approaching 100% of the London - Toronto or KW - Toronto trips when built? ... so my assertion would be that this line will have to achieve that 6 million riders from something less (perhaps significantly less) than 50% of the total trips between the cities involved....so, are there 12 million + making that trip regularly?

I think it could take, say, 10-15% of current travel on that corridor. More importantly, to my mind, is the latent demand - which I think would make up most of the use of this service. I.e. I think most of the ridership would be trips not currently made on any mode.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think it could take, say, 10-15% of current travel on that corridor. More importantly, to my mind, is the latent demand - which I think would make up most of the use of this service. I.e. I think most of the ridership would be trips not currently made on any mode.

I think 10 - 15% is a good number...achievable....so what is it 10 - 15% of? and can you put a guestimate on that "latent demand"....if I understand you right, there are a significant number of people wanting to travel between those cities and when faced with the current bus/rail/private vehicle options elect to forego the trip? Really?