TheTigerMaster
Superstar
How long will this HSR Environmental Assessment take? The TPAP for local transit projects is typically six months. Can we expect the HSR EA to conclude so quickly?
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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
I'd think it would to be a full blown EA. The TPAP process is designed for urban areas, where they tend to stick to existing road alignments, so the environmental impacts really come down to noise and social. From London to Toronto, they will be going through mostly rural areas, with agriculture, forests, protected wetlands, greenbelt, and also has to cross the Niagara Escarpment at some point. At a quick estimate at the table would be about 5 or 6 Conservation Authorities (depending on which route they go - but you normally have different options), about 33 upper and lower tier municipalities, who knows how many First Nations (though GTA West from Toronto to Guelph had 15), and surely a half-dozen provincial ministries and agencies - and presumably Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
It's going to be a lot more than 6 months. Perhaps the closest parallel of late would be the GTA West corridor where the EA was in 2 stages following the completion of the Terms of Reference (TOR) started in I believe 2006 and wascompleted in July 2007. At the time of it's suspension during Stage 2 in 2015, it was planned to be approved by the end of 2018. So about 12 years. However, even after 9 years, it was still not clear if they also had to also do an assessment that met the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act requirements.
Given the increased complexity of this project (where it's twice as long, presumably having twice as many stakeholders, and also private corporations such as Canadian Pacific and Canadian Nation to deal with, then 6 years (rather than 6 months) would be incredibly optimistic. And all that assume there is no appeal. That alone could add years to the process.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
From the report, it's clear that there's a case for Toronto-London. London-Windsor has a rather weak case. So even if this goes forward, I think the second phase is a long ways off.
I still think this will get rolled into VIA HFR at some point. The province has no money. And I think they'd be more than happy to have the Infra Bank and VIA build it. Queen's Park will get to claim credit with minimal involvement or dollars.
I still think this will get rolled into VIA HFR at some point. The province has no money. And I think they'd be more than happy to have the Infra Bank and VIA build it. Queen's Park will get to claim credit with minimal involvement or dollars.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
If six years is optimistic, how in the world do they plan to have this operational by 2025?
nfitz
Superstar
It's only an election promise - don't take it too seriously.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
As sceptical I am about HSR west of Toronto (and especially: west of London), I don't see much operational risks with crossing the border, provided that the service ends in Detroit: westbound, the US border checks could be performed upon arrival in Detroit, while eastbound, Canadian customs would be performed prior to boarding and departure with customers not cleared in time getting automatically bumped on the next train. For extending further beyond the boarder (e.g. beyond Detroit and Niagara Falls,NY), however, the operational issues you mentioned would certainly occur...
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Just up at the Detroit Free Press:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/2017/05/21/windsor-high-speed-rail-line/335178001/
robmausser
Senior Member
Heck I even think having a separate service from Via is too much of a variable.
Take the money that was going to this and partner with VIA to extend their dedicated tracks 125MPH electric HFR proposal to Windsor.
I realize its not true high speed, but it is still a huge improvement and we've been promised high speed rail for the better part of half a century. Lets just get something done in baby steps, and then we can upgrade it to higher speeds at a later date. You will also get more federal money commitment by doing this, as VIA is a federal crown corp.
Having a separate service from VIA is just going to complicate things.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
HSR EA is expected to take at least four years, which means construction couldn't begin until after the next election cycle. Wonderful 
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Have the PCs commented at all on HSR?
steveintoronto
Superstar
No, other than to lambaste it. The PCs haven't committed to any form of transit, let alone transportation altogether.
On an up note though, for HSR to happen, The Missing Link has to happen first. And that is something we can all appreciate.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Dwell times on the high boarding HSR I took in Italy were about 3 minutes. Anything longer than 3 to 4 minutes is just a make-work project. If they decide to have stops in Guelph and/or Chatham then the whole idea should be scrapped all together.Tor-Lon makes sense but so would Windsor but only if an agreement can be reached between Ont/Can & Mich/USA were the cost of the connecting tunnel/bridge is shared and there is an easy and fast built-in Customs Centre at the Detroit station. Getting them on-board with an extension to Chicago would be a great benefit.
As for VIA bitching up a storm about HSR milking revenue and riders off their busy SWO Corridor, suck it up. VIA's inferior service and lousy reputation is well deserved and they can take credit for most of it. Yes they have been short-changed by Ottawa but VIA has also made conscious decisions to keep completely unnecessary routes open for political gain and because they were afraid to offend their Ottawa taskmasters. Instead of making decisions on sound economics they choose instead to go the easy route and just let sleeping dogs lie and the travellers be damned.
If there can be a owner & operator that will put The Corridor first then so be it. Outside of The Corridor, you could cancel all VIA rail service overnight and it the media didn't report it, 95% of the population wouldn't even notice and even fewer would care.
As for VIA bitching up a storm about HSR milking revenue and riders off their busy SWO Corridor, suck it up. VIA's inferior service and lousy reputation is well deserved and they can take credit for most of it. Yes they have been short-changed by Ottawa but VIA has also made conscious decisions to keep completely unnecessary routes open for political gain and because they were afraid to offend their Ottawa taskmasters. Instead of making decisions on sound economics they choose instead to go the easy route and just let sleeping dogs lie and the travellers be damned.
If there can be a owner & operator that will put The Corridor first then so be it. Outside of The Corridor, you could cancel all VIA rail service overnight and it the media didn't report it, 95% of the population wouldn't even notice and even fewer would care.
steveintoronto
Superstar
VIA aren't the ones to choose to run a route or cancel it. It's not their call, and "politics" isn't their call either.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2014-94/
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
As far too often with your rants, I can't see them being backed up by any facts or can you find me any source where VIA has argued against the Ontario Liberals' HSR proposal in SWO?
Also, as for your continued rants against any passenger rail operations or investments outside the Corridor, you may want to look up what exactly happened 150 years ago and why this (your!) country celebrates it so enthusiastically this summer. You may ask a friend it you can't find a $10 bill in your wallet...
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Indeed, VIA and anyone officially associated with them have offered no comments what-so-ever, at least in the public domain. Either pro or con. Radio silence is being strictly enforced.
Comment, if it is due, is for MPs and MPPs. What is conspicuous, even with mention of VIA (as well as GO) in the report, is how it would work in a *complementary* fashion, not a replacement one.