Harper's Management Style and Lebanon

[Abeja de Almirante]

Are the human beings in a democracy worth more than those in non-democracies?

Holly kumbaya commentary. The human beings in Lebanon started this by firing missiles into Israel, most likely at the behest of Iran via Syria so to distract the world from their nuclear program.

Canada is not supporting Israel or Lebanon. There are no Canadian forces, equipment or funding going to either sides' campaign in this war. All we've had at all, is our PM saying that Israel has been attacked (obviously) and is right to strike back.

In the Second World War, Germany bombed British cities, causing a few thousand dead civilians. The British reaction (and that of the Americans, who's cities were never attacked at all by Germany) was to carpet bomb German cities, killing hundreds of thousands. The lesson learned is know your enemy before you start the fight. If you poke a lion with a needle, don't expect the lion to poke you back in equal measure, instead he'll take your head off.

All Lebanon had to do to stop this from starting would have been for the PM and/or President of Lebanon to declare that they're willing but unable to stop the Hizbolah groups, and request foreign assistance. France and other nations with close ties to Lebanon (such as Canada) would have come to Lebanon's assistance. Instead, Lebanon allowed this to happen by not stopping the attacks on Israel from starting.

 

[bizorky]

Holly kumbaya commentary.

You keep repeating the statement that Israel is the only democracy in the region, so one must assume you mean something. Maybe you would want to spell it out a little more?

Canada is not supporting Israel or Lebanon. There are no Canadian forces, equipment or funding going to either sides' campaign in this war. All we've had at all, is our PM saying that Israel has been attacked (obviously) and is right to strike back.

And beyond that he has stated that the attack is "measured." All I am asking is by what kind of criteria. How many civilian deaths is acceptable? Who decides the line and how?

In the Second World War, Germany bombed British cities, causing a few thousand dead civilians. The British reaction (and that of the Americans, who's cities were never attacked at all by Germany) was to carpet bomb German cities, killing hundreds of thousands. The lesson learned is know your enemy before you start the fight. If you poke a lion with a needle, don't expect the lion to poke you back in equal measure, instead he'll take your head off.

Bravado aside, World Wars make a nice case for ideology trumping any conversation of the value of human life. But again, it amazes me how easy it is to pass off the recognition of mass civilian deaths. Yes, one can digest everything down to a set of lessons and factoids, but is this done as a means to psychologically glossing over the immense price with respect to human life?

To say something is justified is always difficult. It ought to be when one enters into killing people when exercising those justifications.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

You keep repeating the statement that Israel is the only democracy in the region, so one must assume you mean something. Maybe you would want to spell it out a little more?

Where have I said that Israel is the ONLY democracy in the region? Hmmm...let's have a look at what I've actually said.

The one well-working democracy in the Middle East is attacked by terrorists in Lebanon.

I.e. there are other democracies in the Middle East, such as Lebanon, but these are not well-working. In my view, a working democracy would not permit terrorists to attack neighbouring countries from its territory. A democracy is more than just electing your representative, IMO it's a about having a rule of law, a working and fair justice and police system. There is no way a well-working democracy in Lebanon would permit Syrian-backed terrorists from operating against Israel in its territory, unless this was with full Lebanese gov't support.

 

[spmarshall]

No, this is a case of if you shoot one missile at me, I'll destroy you. That's still a measured response.

I guess you could call that measured. Like debating the definition of "is".

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Okay, it's time to come clean here. For everyone who thinks Israel is way off line here, what would you have done if you were Israel's leader?

Then, as an outsider, what would you have preferred Israel had done?

Let's not go back in history, to right wrongs from the near or distant past. Instead let's concentrate on what you would have done onwards from the initial July 12th attack from Lebanon.

 

[bizorky]

Why engage in your straw-man scenario? What difference would it make if one posed fifty different options for you to toy with? Why deviate from what is actually going on?

I, for one, still await definition of "acceptable" deaths of non-combatant civilians. I still see nothing "measured" as much as people would like to believe it is because only around a thousand people are dead instead of ten thousand.

Let's not go back in history? Why not? This entire Middle East conflict is a product of history. How would you presume to separate that out?

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Let's not go back in history? Why not? This entire Middle East conflict is a product of history. How would you presume to separate that out?

What I'm seeking is a feasible alternative course of action for Israel for today (or two weeks ago when this started). What would you have preferred Israel had done instead of bombing Lebanon?

I can't answer your question on acceptable levels of casualties. I imagine a set limit is seldom considered in military action.

 

[spmarshall]

To get back to the original focus of the topic, here's Harper unapologetic for the foreign policy shift and his "measured" comments. In a way, I hope the course stays this way with the "polls be damned" arrogance - he'll be easier to kick out.

To borrow from Stephen Colbert, you'd rather have a Prime Minister who believes the same thing on Wednesday as he did on Monday, no matter what happens on Tuesday.

Um....great.

Sounds more and more like Bush. Colbert's on the money as he often is, in his own, dry sarcastic way.

Harper will not bow to `so-called opinion leaders'
Won't alter agenda, PM tells Tories
Mideast a hot topic at caucus retreat
Aug. 4, 2006. 01:00 AM
LES WHITTINGTON
OTTAWA BUREAU

CORNWALL, Ont.—Stephen Harper, whose government has slipped sharply in the polls amid concerns about Conservative foreign policy, is showing no sign that he will alter his controversial approach to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

"There are all kinds of so-called opinion leaders and interest groups who have tried to block our agenda, but we know where we stand, we know where we are going," the Prime Minister told Conservative MPs and supporters at a caucus retreat here yesterday.

- Sounds like Mike Harris

In an apparent response to his party's sudden drop in opinion surveys, Harper delivered a rousing campaign-style speech listing his government's goals, accomplishments and commitments.

"When given the choice between moving forward with our government or turning back the clock with the Liberals, Canadians will choose to move forward," he told the party faithful.

Despite polls showing that many voters would prefer Ottawa to play a neutral, peacekeeping role in the Middle East, the Conservatives said they are not moving away from their current stance on the Arab-Israeli war. Along with the United States, Canada is continuing to oppose calls by European governments for an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon and Israel.

"There has to be a ceasefire in conditions that will allow for a lasting peace," Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay repeated yesterday when asked if Ottawa would join the international demands for an immediate cessation of Middle East fighting.

Like U.S. President George W. Bush's administration, the Harper government insists a ceasefire would be fruitless as long as Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon can still threaten Israel with military incursions or rockets.

But MacKay said Canada remains concerned about the humanitarian crisis created by the armed conflict, which has led to hundreds of civilian deaths and left hundreds of thousands of people displaced in Lebanon.

"Everyone in the international community is focusing on how we bring about an end to the violence, how we get humanitarian relief to the people who need it most — the now hundreds of thousands of people who are displaced, who are nomadic now, living in refugee camps inside Lebanon," he told the media.

MacKay said the Conservatives are considering federal financial aid to help alleviate the humanitarian emergency in the Middle East.

The Middle East is a hot topic at the three-day retreat, MPs said.

"I acknowledge that the polls certainly are showing shifting public opinion," said Conservative MP Garth Turner when asked about public reaction to the government's Middle East policy.

But he declined comment, saying Harper's experience has shown it's best to keep quiet on this issue right now.

"Giving any kind of a comment in the middle of a conflict is a pretty tough thing to do. The Prime Minister found that, I'd find that right now," Turner, the MP from Halton riding, told reporters.

The caucus meeting winds up today.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

"I acknowledge that the polls certainly are showing shifting public opinion," said Conservative MP Garth Turner when asked about public reaction to the government's Middle East policy.

But he declined comment, saying Harper's experience has shown it's best to keep quiet on this issue right now.

"Giving any kind of a comment in the middle of a conflict is a pretty tough thing to do. The Prime Minister found that, I'd find that right now," Turner, the MP from Halton riding, told reporters.

He should know, considering his comments on the leader in question during the early days of the government.

AoD

 

[ganjavih]

Hurry up Liberals and elect your leader so we can boot out this neo-con ninny!

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Hurry up Liberals and elect your leader so we can boot out this neo-con ninny!

Let's see who they elect first. If it's Rae, Dion or Iggy (the socialist-spender, the environmentalist-Quebecer or the absentee-academic) I'd say Harper will win a majority. But I could be wrong of course.

Now, if they find someone who is able to renew the party, stop future HRDC and Adscam scandals and massive program overspends such as on gun registry, and keep the economic engine of the country running well, while ensuring folks like Whitmore and other serious offenders are actually off the street after serious offence #1, and keeps taxes competitive with our American neighbours, then I'd vote for him/her.

 

[afransen TO]

I can guarantee to you that not even the conservatives will be able to avoid HRDC-type fiascos. It's inevitable. Just think about the trillion+ dollars that were spent under the 13 year Liberal regime's government. How much was actually misappropriated in the manner you suggest? Closer to 0.1% than 1%.

 

[cdl42]

Ah yes, the HRDC bondoggle. Everyone notices when huge numbers are tossed around, but no one takes note when the whole thing is proved to be false...

From the Globe:

"The Human Resources Development Canada "billion-dollar boondoggle" consumed the media for months in 2000 and has attained mythical status as an account of waste and mismanagement. As it happens, an exhaustive audit concluded that the amount that went missing was not $1-billion - it was $85,000. The "scandal," in other words, was phony. The media caravan moves on - but the damage is done."

 

[bizorky]

^Absolutely right! For months the "boondoggle" crap hit the front pages of major newspapers. When the truth came out that the accusations were, in fact, the boondoggle, you never saw it as front page news.

The irony was that the slow rates of accounting at HRDC followed massive spending reductions in government - and HRDC - a monster department created by the Conservatives!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"it happens, an exhaustive audit concluded that the amount that went missing was not $1-billion - it was $85,000."

How much did the audit cost?