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Harbourfront Centre

Given the fact that everything south of Front St did not exist when Toronto came into existent as it was water, the city has never had a plan or vision for the waterfront in the first place except for one place.

The only thing the city wanted up to the 1950's was land in place of water to support industries, the railroad and shipping.

I have never support the idea of putting condos and buildings on the south side of Queens Quay, as that should be public domain land so everyone can view the Lake/Harbour as they travel the QQ from one end to the other all the time.

People have bitch for years that the Gardiner was blocking the view of the waterfront when in fact it was the poor design and placement of condos and hotels on the south side of the QQ as well the condos on the north side.

I have no issue with Harbourfront complex or the silos. I have no issue with the parking being put underground now. I do have issue with the buildings in the pipeline for this area and they should not be built.

Condos and buildings should be built on the north side of QQ only.
 
Condos and buildings should be built on the north side of QQ only.
I disagree a bit. While I think you're right that the views and enjoyment of the harbourfront should be maintained, harbourfront is a neighbourhood as well, and one of the reasons that it is somewhat sparse as a neighbourhood (and has the same "suburban" qualities that people label Cityplace with) is because only the north side is really developed. It's lacking the density to self-sustain and because of that, you find a lot of dead areas, especially west of Rees. The parks are awesome, don't get me wrong. It's just difficult to ignore the fact that it is a neighbourhood that is missing the qualities of other neighbourhoods in the city.

We can't bemoan the condos and apartments that are already on the waterfront. They're there for good. What we need to do is figure out how we can continue with the waterfront vision, while creating a livable community.
 
I disagree a bit. While I think you're right that the views and enjoyment of the harbourfront should be maintained, harbourfront is a neighbourhood as well, and one of the reasons that it is somewhat sparse as a neighbourhood (and has the same "suburban" qualities that people label Cityplace with) is because only the north side is really developed. It's lacking the density to self-sustain and because of that, you find a lot of dead areas, especially west of Rees. The parks are awesome, don't get me wrong. It's just difficult to ignore the fact that it is a neighbourhood that is missing the qualities of other neighbourhoods in the city.

We can't bemoan the condos and apartments that are already on the waterfront. They're there for good. What we need to do is figure out how we can continue with the waterfront vision, while creating a livable community.

So let me get this straight; The so called 'suburban' look and feel is a result of a strip of land, maybe 20/50m deep south of Queens Quay remaining 'undeveloped' ? Given the 1000s of meters of development north of Queens Quay I'd love to know what you would like to see to the south that would usher in a new age of urbanism for Queens Quay; Maybe 5000 feet condos ?

What I find entertaining about the post, though funny enough I agree with you regarding the suburban feel of the area (but that's not the right word, maybe 'quiet'), is that many people I know that live in the area love it due to the sense of community it has; supposedly all the green space contributes to that, who would have imagined that ?

Have you seen the plans for East Bayfront, to me, less the architectural details (which are not clear at the moment), that is just about as ideal as you can get. It seems to match the vision you're trying push no ?
 
The name sounds beautiful, but the first time I went to Queens Quay, I was not able to locate it, as it is so easy to miss. You can easily walk by it without realizing it is just on your left hand side. The name evokes imagination such as the Sydney Opera House, or something more realistic and less glorious, the Canada Place in Vancouver. but in reality, the Toronto Harbourfront center is really some two (or three?) storeyed structure that holds no architectural value or even pleasing to the eye. It looks like any community center - the St Jamestown community center looks nicer than it, or a primary school in Thunder Bay, yet occupying a large space and the best location in Toronto.

I don't know its history. Maybe at the time it was built, Toronto never had any vision or desire to be a great or just nice looking city, and just want to be a mediocre lake side town, thus allowing such structures -- I can't say ugly, it is just no one will never notice or remember how it looks like -- to be built there and name it "Harbourfront Center".

We can talk about the vibrancy or how many cultural activities happening by the lake in the summer any way we want, but the Harbourfront Center essentially represents the ultimate mediocrity when it comes to Toronto's waterfront planning and design. It is like, we need a center to hold events, why not ask a cheap builder to put some concrete and drywalls on Queens Quay, name it "Hourbourfront Center" and call it a day. Has anybody ever cared the beauty of our city?

It does echo nicely with the old condos on the other side of Queens Quay.

Queens Quay needs a lot of work, but nothing will change if the Harbourfront center doesn't.

The 1970s were a time when Toronto knew exactly what it wanted. This was the Jane Jacobs and David Crombie reform era. Toronto wanted heritage preservation, view corridor preservation, pedestrian-oriented urban design, vibrant streets as opposed to overhead walkway sterility, and architecture that encapsulated all these goals above all. Toronto, like other major world cities, was increasingly sceptical of bold Modernist design that called for the demolition of meaningful heritage buildings, produced windswept plazas, blocked views, resulted in sterile public spaces meant to discourage loitering, and saw crime in the deadzones around Modernist buildings.

This movement reflected international trends, and it's very common to find projects reflective of these new reform values in every major European and North American city that was successful at the time, prioritizing projects that fit into the traditional city or negotiated between tradition and Modernism. The pedestrian zones in many European cities often date to 1970s, and Toronto saw a part of Yonge pedestrianized in this era as well. Architecture often became more deferential and less inclined towards boldness, except for Brutalism. That's where Harbourfront fits in. At that point, interesting old industrial buildings where preserved and converted as opposed to being demolished without a second thought. To offer all this culture on a reimagined, post-industrial waterfront downtown with clear links to the past while being contemporary was quite progressive.

We've seen beautiful architecture in Toronto since its early days in the 19th century, but by 1970s, the city was strongly in line with international urban design and architectural movements, and recognized as a leading city in Modernist reform. In retrospect, it must have been an inspiring time because a greater sense of consciousness was being formed in the city in terms of history, historic architecture, culture, the merits of the walkable, pedestrian-oriented city, historic views, mixed-use development, and even cycling. It's perverse to hear Harbourfront Centre described as a product of a less ambitious city because it's really the opposite. Harbourfront Centre itself features the Amsterdam Bridge, a pedestrian bridge whose name commemorates the partnership of Toronto and Amsterdam in 1974, the kind of partnership which would be characteristic of the ambitious Toronto of the 1970s. (Amsterdam commemorated the partnership with some Toronto-named structures as well.)

yeah, I figured I would get responses like this. There has never been a shortage of excuses for the lack of good design among many folks here. We don't need it to look good, we only need it to work (and yes, it works better than anywhere else)! If you want to look nice, you are by definition a bleached-blonde silicone bimbo with no content whatsoever. I guess Paris and Barcelona with their world class architectures are in your mind, just boring silcone implants. The more vehemently one protests against constructive criticism, the more insecurity it shows. Members like you can't handle any nagative comments about this city and only want praises like "first class", "most livable" "vibrant" "diversity".

Your criticism that it's possible to be beautiful and functional is sound, but Harbourfront Centre shows that the lack of bold beauty doesn't preclude a place from being interesting or relevant. In its historical context, we can understand its particular aesthetic. Toronto finds a lot of meaning and identity in this era. There was so much at stake in the 1970s in terms of confronting the problems with bold Modernism in Toronto and internationally that the deferential approach to architecture proved to be satisfying and reassuring to planners and architects in various cities around the world. They were regaining the control they needed to progress in the traditional city, rather than dubiously destroying and rebuilding. Harbourfront Centre is a great cultural centre with preserved but creatively repurposed architectural heritage, and it's a pleasant place to spend time.
 
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In its historical context, we can understand its particular aesthetic. Toronto finds a lot of meaning and identity in this era.

Yea...I think people don't understand that the Starchitect look was not part of the 70's & early 80's. Boho & industrial High Tech were in vogue.


To offer all this culture on a reimagined, post-industrial waterfront downtown with clear links to the past while being contemporary was quite progressive.

An important message to those who think Art Barns, Brickworks and Distillery Districts are a new idea.
 
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So let me get this straight; The so called 'suburban' look and feel is a result of a strip of land, maybe 20/50m deep south of Queens Quay remaining 'undeveloped' ? Given the 1000s of meters of development north of Queens Quay I'd love to know what you would like to see to the south that would usher in a new age of urbanism for Queens Quay; Maybe 5000 feet condos ?

What I find entertaining about the post, though funny enough I agree with you regarding the suburban feel of the area (but that's not the right word, maybe 'quiet'), is that many people I know that live in the area love it due to the sense of community it has; supposedly all the green space contributes to that, who would have imagined that ?

Have you seen the plans for East Bayfront, to me, less the architectural details (which are not clear at the moment), that is just about as ideal as you can get. It seems to match the vision you're trying push no ?

Funny enough, I live on the harbourfront. And like I said, the parks are awesome. No one in their right mind would suggest replacing HTO Park or the Music Garden with a condo. But, yes the plans for the East Bayfront are the ideal situation. The problem is, everyone seems to think of Harbourfront as the city's front yard from the May to August, and then you get the odd weekend day in the months before and after. So all that vibrancy that is created by the parks disappears for 6 months of the year. It's a trade-off for having some of the best parks in the city, but, the fact is, those parks only contribute to the community for a few months of the year. For example, it's a nice sunny Sunday morning right now. Do you know how many people are in HTO Park right now? Zero.

And without suggesting that we should be building condos on these parks (because i don't believe that should happen), in theory I would argue that development on that 20-50m deep strip of land would be enough to change the suburban nature of the area, particularly west of Rees where there are many empty storefronts or at best a revolving door of commercial establishments that have proven to so far be unsustainable. However, I'll add that even I don't completely agree with that notion as someone who thinks we do a horrible job of building anything over a few stories tall that helps contribute to the street life. But Ultimately, if done right developments in that area would help create a bit more self-sustaining vibrancy.
 
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However, I'll add that even I don't completely agree with that notion as someone who thinks we do a horrible job of building anything over a few stories tall that helps contribute to the street life. But Ultimately, if done right developments in that area would help create a bit more self-sustaining vibrancy.

I hate seeing this sentiment echoed throughout the form and in articles as it's simply not true. I can list off hundreds of development that contributed to the street scape in which they were developed. Sure there are some that don't, a lot granted, but many do a perfect job. Even in the core.
Anyway just had to get that off my chest.


Back to the harbourfront, simply put if we follow the natural process for building such spaces (and this is echoed in many supposedly great waterfront in American cities e.g. Chicago, also empty many times of the day, even more so then what we have here I'd argue), it's about providing public space, and a lot of it. Such areas are always relatively unused. But maybe there is nothing wrong with that ?

Also, if you walk around the Harbront center I think you'll find that's very heavily used, relatively speeking, most times of the day. Actually it really irks me when people slam that facility. I come by quite often in the sprint / summer / fall and its heavily used on many week night! There are just so many things going on, I think it's a perfect example of something we've done right.

I've come to conclusion that buildings in themselves don't really provide vibrancy, it's not enough. It would need to be a local attraction, so retail at the base likely wouldn't be sufficient. You'd need something like .......... the harbourfront center ... which we already have.
 
I hate seeing this sentiment echoed throughout the form and in articles as it's simply not true. I can list off hundreds of development that contributed to the street scape in which they were developed. Sure there are some that don't, a lot granted, but many do a perfect job. Even in the core.
Anyway just had to get that off my chest.


Back to the harbourfront, simply put if we follow the natural process for building such spaces (and this is echoed in many supposedly great waterfront in American cities e.g. Chicago, also empty many times of the day, even more so then what we have here I'd argue), it's about providing public space, and a lot of it. Such areas are always relatively unused. But maybe there is nothing wrong with that ?

Also, if you walk around the Harbront center I think you'll find that's very heavily used, relatively speeking, most times of the day. Actually it really irks me when people slam that facility. I come by quite often in the sprint / summer / fall and its heavily used on many week night! There are just so many things going on, I think it's a perfect example of something we've done right.

I've come to conclusion that buildings in themselves don't really provide vibrancy, it's not enough. It would need to be a local attraction, so retail at the base likely wouldn't be sufficient. You'd need something like .......... the harbourfront center ... which we already have.

what your said is right. However, I really don't see good design and good usage contradicting each other. I never said the Harbourfront center didn't serve its purpose, it is just too plain and shows no design whatsoever.
Again, we sunk into this typical finding a bright aspect pretending the bad one doesn't exist. Additionally, Do you really think the Chicago Waterfront is not heavily used in the summer? Harbourfront center is done right? are you serious?

To say Toronto did a better job in planning its waterfront than Chicago, is ridiculous. Nobody outside Toronto would think that's even possible. It is so similar to the "Chicago downtown is prettier with much nicer buildings, so what, look we have so much more pedestrians on the street" argument. I am amazed by how frequently Torontonians use arguments of this type, which is sad. To be proud of the city you live in is one thing, to keep a blind eye on what is not done right, or stubbornly deny others may have done a better job is another.
 
what your said is right. However, I really don't see good design and good usage contradicting each other. I never said the Harbourfront center didn't serve its purpose, it is just too plain and shows no design whatsoever.
Again, we sunk into this typical finding a bright aspect pretending the bad one doesn't exist. Additionally, Do you really think the Chicago Waterfront is not heavily used in the summer? Harbourfront center is done right? are you serious?

To say Toronto did a better job in planning its waterfront than Chicago, is ridiculous. Nobody outside Toronto would think that's even possible. It is so similar to the "Chicago downtown is prettier with much nicer buildings, so what, look we have so much more pedestrians on the street" argument. I am amazed by how frequently Torontonians use arguments of this type, which is sad. To be proud of the city you live in is one thing, to keep a blind eye on what is not done right, or stubbornly deny others may have done a better job is another.

Dubai has some stunning architecture and the bravado to go with it, but it's also a laughing stock.

I posted this back in May but it's worth posting again (and really the discussion that followed this in the linked thread is worth checking out too):
Saying "why can't our waterfront be more like Chicago's?" is like saying "why can't the AGO and ROM be more like the Louvre and the British Museum?" You're comparing Toronto to quite literally the best in the world at that one thing. No one has a waterfront like Chicago's except for Chicago, and the only reason it's like that is because of the culmination of 200 years worth of planning and circumstance: Plans for the city 200 years ago called for Grant Park. Throw in the fact that the Adler Planetarium and the Shedd Aquarium were only built because two wealthy men donated a lot of money to have them built and the Field Museum and Art Institute only exist because they held the 1893 World's Columbian Expo. Finally, and perhaps unparalleled anywhere, the private sector paid for half of the nearly $500million cost to build Millennium Park. Also keep in mind, we're talking about a period (city beautiful movement) when grandiose and ambitious structures and plans were the norm around the world. Toronto has a few remnants of this era, but we're talking about comparing us to a city that was one of the wealthiest in the world during that specific period and perhaps at the forefront of the entire movement.

However, the other thing is, Chicago's waterfront isn't a welcoming place for locals. It's primarily a tourist destination. Toronto's waterfront is filling up with condos (for better or for worse) and it means that the area is far friendlier to locals. It's another neighbourhood, not an attraction. Essentially, if something like Chicago's waterfront is what we want (for some reason), then we should start looking at the Exhibition grounds as our own Museum campus/designer park. We already have the buildings and the Princes' Gate. You just need to tear up the parking lots, replace it with parks and fountains, kick the CNE out, find uses for each building and you're good to go. But there's no point wishing we had a Chicago waterfront between Spadina and Parliament. That ball had to start rolling before any of our grandparents were born.
 
To say Toronto did a better job in planning its waterfront than Chicago, is ridiculous.

I'd say Chicago did a better job of planning its central waterfront...in the 19th century. Chicago put aside a large expanse for leisure, and kept it that way. Toronto let industry completely dominate well into the 20th century.

But the late 20th & early 21st century belongs to Toronto. Millennium Park is a 1/2 $Billion worth of very expensive baubles. I think it's great, but there's no way I would trade in Harbourfront for it. While Millennium Park gets 4 million visitors, Harbourfront Centre get 12 million. It isn't surprising, as HC puts on over 4000 events, some of which are the best you will find anywhere (and some you will not find anywhere else at all).

I think Harbourfront also pays better homage to Toronto's rich maritime history. And I like how it also pays homage to its industrial past as well.

To blow off the entire 100 acres of Harbourfront (or the 10 aces of Harboufront Centre), and the much bigger waterfront renewal program under way, because one stinking small re-used building in Harboufront doesn't live up to some architectural flair standards is what I find mondo-beyondo wacky and myopic.
 
To blow off the entire 100 acres of Harbourfront (or the 10 aces of Harboufront Centre), and the much bigger waterfront renewal program under way, because one stinking small re-used building in Harboufront doesn't live up to some architectural flair standards is what I find mondo-beyondo wacky and myopic.

But again: kkgg7 wants a PSE. He's not prepared to handle a GFE--for him, it's too plain and boring.

Well, whaddaya expect. Skyscraper geeks have no girlfriends; therefore, the whys and wherefores of the girlfriend experience are terra incognita to them. And everything they know about erotic bliss comes through webcam-girl websites and the like where everyone's bouncy-blonde and silicone and submissive a la Dubai or name-that-Asian-boomburg. They learned the facts of life through porn stars; ergo, they expect their partners to be like porn stars, otherwise, they're useless to them. (At least the feeling is mutual, which is why said geeks *still* have no girlfriends.)
 
How ironic is it, that some of the most insightful architectural exhibits are held at the architecturally unremarkable York Quay Centre building?

And kkgg7 must know that if he actually got a close-up look at PSE, she's gonna have a pimple on her ass.
 
I'd say Chicago did a better job of planning its central waterfront...in the 19th century. Chicago put aside a large expanse for leisure, and kept it that way. Toronto let industry completely dominate well into the 20th century.

But the late 20th & early 21st century belongs to Toronto. Millennium Park is a 1/2 $Billion worth of very expensive baubles. I think it's great, but there's no way I would trade in Harbourfront for it. While Millennium Park gets 4 million visitors, Harbourfront Centre get 12 million. It isn't surprising, as HC puts on over 4000 events, some of which are the best you will find anywhere (and some you will not find anywhere else at all).

I think Harbourfront also pays better homage to Toronto's rich maritime history. And I like how it also pays homage to its industrial past as well.

To blow off the entire 100 acres of Harbourfront (or the 10 aces of Harboufront Centre), and the much bigger waterfront renewal program under way, because one stinking small re-used building in Harboufront doesn't live up to some architectural flair standards is what I find mondo-beyondo wacky and myopic.

I agree.

Although Millennium Park has the landmark art installations that attract a bunch of people, it's not a great site for year-round use, other than the skating rink. Harbourfront Centre at least has both indoor and outdoor activities and is geared much more towards arts and culture than Millennium Park. If we're looking purely at aesthetics, MP wins hands-down. Otherwise I would say HC is more equipped given its location.
 
It's perverse to hear Harbourfront Centre described as a product of a less ambitious city because it's really the opposite.

This is one of the defining comments of the thread for me.

It addresses a very ill thought-out attitude. And from someone who must have certainly not actually been around at the time.

Although not yet fully evolved, Harboufront was just one project of that era that had seen many bold and creative ideas come to fruition....the Science Centre...Ontario Place...the Eaton centre...CN Tower....St Lawrence neighbourhood. Not to mention the big bank towers. Toronto was hitting its stride, and the world was paying attention....it made the cover of Time Magazine as "The world's newest great city". Architects, urban planners, journalists and tourists had all dubbed it..."The City That Works".
 
But again: kkgg7 wants a PSE. He's not prepared to handle a GFE--for him, it's too plain and boring.

Well, whaddaya expect. Skyscraper geeks have no girlfriends; therefore, the whys and wherefores of the girlfriend experience are terra incognita to them. And everything they know about erotic bliss comes through webcam-girl websites and the like where everyone's bouncy-blonde and silicone and submissive a la Dubai or name-that-Asian-boomburg. They learned the facts of life through porn stars; ergo, they expect their partners to be like porn stars, otherwise, they're useless to them. (At least the feeling is mutual, which is why said geeks *still* have no girlfriends.)

again, the personal hatred and venom r you displayed towards those holding a different view from yours (let it be right or wrong, often there is no right or wrong) is uncanny. Your vivid description about your imaginary enemy on a public forum is most likely a more realistic picture of no one but yourself.

I can understand people who think my views are wrong or stupid, I don't mind that since different people want different cities. They point out what they prefer and I respect that. There is nothing wrong with my disliking old Victorian houses, or their adverse opinion toward 400m tall glass towers. But the constant vicious curse from you is weirdly sick. I would have felt offended and upset if I were 20 years old though.
 
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