Hamilton-Niagara passenger rail enhancements

[Sunnyside]

Speeds through Bayview to West Harbour are limited by switches (which in turn define the potential signal indications), which only allow 25mph.

The switches are unlikely to be upgraded anytime soon, as a) they are not worn out and b) faster switches don't fit between various physical objects in the way.

It is what it is.

- Paul

No improvements to Bayview will be cheap. I’m not sure of the cost, but upgrading the switches sounds significantly cheaper than any other potential improvements that deliver meaningful change. Beats waiting for enough willpower to reconstruct the junction, or build just one flyover, or whathaveyou.

Just reposting this here, since this is the most up to date information I've seen for this section of rail, thanks to @lastcommodore

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I recall not long ago west harbour paled in comparison to Hamilton GO Centre. This is fairly substantial ridership as far as I’m concerned. And it is a fantastic indicator of how much latent demand centered on Hamilton and beyond exists. Metrolinx really gets creative trying to portray otherwise.

 

[Chris R.]

No improvements to Bayview will be cheap. I’m not sure of the cost, but upgrading the switches sounds significantly cheaper than any other potential improvements that deliver meaningful change. Beats waiting for enough willpower to reconstruct the junction, or build just one flyover, or whathaveyou.


I recall not long ago west harbour paled in comparison to Hamilton GO Centre. This is fairly substantial ridership as far as I’m concerned. And it is a fantastic indicator of how much latent demand centered on Hamilton and beyond exists. Metrolinx really gets creative trying to portray otherwise.

Metrolinx and other transit agencies appear to be operated by car brain car drivers or something who misunderstand transit demand and transportation engineering. They consistently misjudge transit demand. I drive a car, but so take transit and cycle and advocate for both because I want to drive less, and I also realize I'm not along despite the idea that nobody will take transit if they can just take their car.

The Netherlands is known for their cycling but nearly ¾ of the population own a car, they just don't use it for 100% of trips, they use it for like 3%. I would expect more than. 50% of GO train trips to be take by people who own cars.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Metrolinx and other transit agencies appear to be operated by car brain car drivers or something who misunderstand transit demand and transportation engineering. They consistently misjudge transit demand. I drive a car, but so take transit and cycle and advocate for both because I want to drive less, and I also realize I'm not along despite the idea that nobody will take transit if they can just take their car.

The Netherlands is known for their cycling but nearly ¾ of the population own a car, they just don't use it for 100% of trips, they use it for like 3%. I would expect more than. 50% of GO train trips to be take by people who own cars.

IIRC car trips still represent something like 50% of total trips nationwide, even in the netherlands. Definitely not 3%. I mean the Netherlands has the largest and densest freeway network in europe (and they regularly expand it!). Canada sees about 85% IIRC. Also - a lot of that difference is not from cycling, but from walking, which sees significantly higher modal shares across most of europe than in north america for a variety of reasons.. Cycling modal share in the Netherlands is "only" around 25% compared to 1-2% in Canada, and walking is at around 20% vs. 4-5% in Canada.

The Netherlands also has 513 cars per 1,000 people vs. 677 for Canada, so only about 25% fewer cars overall. People tend to overstate how little dutch people drive - definitely a lot less than Canadians, but cars are still a major factor in peoples lives. Most households own a car and regularly use it, with car commuters outnumbering cycling commuters at over a 2:1 ratio.

What is a lot less common I think is 2-car households.

 

[Chris R.]

IIRC car trips still represent something like 50% of total trips nationwide, even in the netherlands. Definitely not 3%. I mean the Netherlands has the largest and densest freeway network in europe (and they regularly expand it!). Canada sees about 85% IIRC. Also - a lot of that difference is not from cycling, but from walking, which sees significantly higher modal shares across most of europe than in north america for a variety of reasons.. Cycling modal share in the Netherlands is "only" around 25% compared to 1-2% in Canada, and walking is at around 20% vs. 4-5% in Canada.

The Netherlands also has 513 cars per 1,000 people vs. 677 for Canada, so only about 25% fewer cars overall. People tend to overstate how little dutch people drive - definitely a lot less than Canadians, but cars are still a major factor in peoples lives. Most households own a car and regularly use it, with car commuters outnumbering cycling commuters at over a 2:1 ratio.

What is a lot less common I think is 2-car households.

I was meaning mainly for in the cities. Rural Dutch still heavily rely on automobiles (we even rented one to visit my father's hometown because bus or train would take far too long and it was only a 45 minute drive), but in the actual cities like Amsterdam, Utrecht, The Hague, Groningen, car trips are far, far lower, representing sometimes as low as 5% of trips. Utrecht for example 75% of trips are made by cycling/walking, many others by transit and around 5% by car.

Nationwide it's surely higher, but 50% is still wayyy lower than here. Trips to a local regional rail station (like we're discussing here to a degree) would almost 100% be done without a car.

 

[crs1026]

IIRC car trips still represent something like 50% of total trips nationwide, even in the netherlands. Definitely not 3%. I mean the Netherlands has the largest and densest freeway network in europe (and they regularly expand it!). Canada sees about 85% IIRC. Also - a lot of that difference is not from cycling, but from walking, which sees significantly higher modal shares across most of europe than in north america for a variety of reasons.. Cycling modal share in the Netherlands is "only" around 25% compared to 1-2% in Canada, and walking is at around 20% vs. 4-5% in Canada.

The Netherlands also has 513 cars per 1,000 people vs. 677 for Canada, so only about 25% fewer cars overall. People tend to overstate how little dutch people drive - definitely a lot less than Canadians, but cars are still a major factor in peoples lives. Most households own a car and regularly use it, with car commuters outnumbering cycling commuters at over a 2:1 ratio.

What is a lot less common I think is 2-car households.

It would be interesting to compare the first/last mile component. My impression is that the distance between a home and the local regional rail station in NL is much shorter than in Canada. So the cycling or walking access to regional rail is quite different. The automobile may be far more practical as a method of getting to our transit.

Having said that, the cost of owning a second car just to get to the GO station is substantial. One would think that there is an economic case for better first/last mile links. Or perhaps people do get tremendous utility from having that second vehicle outside of the time that it sits in the GO parking lot.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Speeds through Bayview to West Harbour are limited by switches (which in turn define the potential signal indications), which only allow 25mph.

The switches are unlikely to be upgraded anytime soon, as a) they are not worn out and b) faster switches don't fit between various physical objects in the way.

It is what it is.

- Paul

The biggest issue to the speeds through that section is curvature, not switch size. The curves are just too tight to allow for higher speeds.

The size of the switches can't be improved, either - not with how everything is currently laid out. GO's "standard" is to put in #20 switches - good for 45mph in the diverging - whenever they pay for a crossover. But there is so little space within the plants at both Hamilton Junction and Stuart that they had to use #16 switches, with their lower diverging speeds. If they wanted to reconfigure those plants to allow for fewer diverging movements, they might be able to get away with using the larger #20s.

Dan

 

[Bojaxs]

The biggest issue to the speeds through that section is curvature, not switch size. The curves are just too tight to allow for higher speeds.

The size of the switches can't be improved, either - not with how everything is currently laid out. GO's "standard" is to put in #20 switches - good for 45mph in the diverging - whenever they pay for a crossover. But there is so little space within the plants at both Hamilton Junction and Stuart that they had to use #16 switches, with their lower diverging speeds. If they wanted to reconfigure those plants to allow for fewer diverging movements, they might be able to get away with using the larger #20s.

Dan

What is the maximum diverging speed allowed for #16 switches?

 

[innsertnamehere]

It would be interesting to compare the first/last mile component. My impression is that the distance between a home and the local regional rail station in NL is much shorter than in Canada. So the cycling or walking access to regional rail is quite different. The automobile may be far more practical as a method of getting to our transit.

Having said that, the cost of owning a second car just to get to the GO station is substantial. One would think that there is an economic case for better first/last mile links. Or perhaps people do get tremendous utility from having that second vehicle outside of the time that it sits in the GO parking lot.

- Paul

One interesting thing about Canada over the Netherlands is that there are actually far more Canadians who take public transit. Only about 5% of trips in the Netherlands are on public transit vs. 11% in Canada.

Ultimately the dutch model is unique globally for a reason as it's cities are flat and dense with population and employment areas focused within cycling distance. For those who don't work within 5km of home they actually drive at higher rates than Canadians who work further than 5km from home - though far more canadians work more than 5km from home as our cities are more spread out..

Cycling rates are higher in cities in the Netherlands of course as well - but even in Amsterdam, automotive modal share is over 40%. Toronto for comparison sits around 60%. Transit modal share in Amsterdam is 19% compared to 26% in Toronto!

 

[smallspy]

What is the maximum diverging speed allowed for #16 switches?

30mph.

Dan