GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[amnesiajune]

I find this hard to believe. My friend comes from Oshawa/Pickering using GO every day and does not spend over $3000 on GO fares for the month. Now I guess you mean they need to pay a 2nf fare for TTC. I just finished reading the post more careful. WEll housing more ex0pensive in Toronto. Are we suppose to subsidize peoples' living expenses/costs?

That's for the year, not the month. A month of Go Transit fares from Pickering to Union is $280, which makes a year add up to nearly $3,400. Commuting from Oshawa to Union by train costs $4,300 per year.

Anyways, the point isn't to subsidize living expenses. The point is to lower the cost of public transit. There are a lot of people -- myself included -- who would have a very reasonable commute time by public transit, but choose to drive instead because transit is significantly slower but costs almost as much as driving. That's completely unacceptable. In my case, I'd be looking at $270/month for a 50 minute bus and subway ride, versus $300/month ($100 for gas, $120 for insurance, $80 on average for maintenance, free parking) for a 25 minute drive. Even if you average out the cost of my car over its lifespan, it's still a difference of less than $25/week to save nearly an hour of commuting time.

A lot of people are in a similar situation to mine. They can take a Go Train for their commute to work, but they don't because they'd have to pay an extra $120/month for a short bus ride from the train station to their workplace. Taking $60 off the cost of the commute makes it more likely that people will choose to take transit.

 

[cplchanb]

i wonder if it is politically possible to replicate the entire yrt/ttc-go fare supplement model to the entire gta? why cant it be just a dollar (or whatever flat rate) surcharge to connect to bridging systems?

 

[amnesiajune]

I wonder if it is politically possible to replicate the entire yrt/ttc-go fare supplement model to the entire gta? why cant it be just a dollar (or whatever flat rate) surcharge to connect to bridging systems?

In the 905, it's free! YRT, DRT, MiWay, Brampton, Oakville and Burlington all accept each other's transfers within two hours. It's only transfers between the TTC and the 905 that pay a second fare.

 

[cplchanb]

In the 905, it's free! YRT, DRT, MiWay, Brampton, Oakville and Burlington all accept each other's transfers within two hours. It's only transfers between the TTC and the 905 that pay a second fare.

hmm so once again it seems like ttc is being the greedy one...

 

[amnesiajune]

hmm so once again it seems like ttc is being the greedy one

It's mostly just smart business from the 905 transit agencies. They have lots of room on their buses, so it's better for them to get one fare for two trips than no fare for two empty seats. In the TTC's case, their buses, streetcars and subways are often packed, so it doesn't make sense to forego farebox revenue when their seats and standing room would be full (at least during rush hour) no matter what.

 

[ssiguy2]

The RER trains I think will just be standard Metro trains but have catenary and not third rail just like Cleveland. I think RER will definitely use one level trains and save the double-deckers for GO Commuter service. Double-deck works well with people getting on at one station and everyone getting off at Union but for a system with more stations and more people getting on/off at many different locations like RER, they are very problematic and significantly slower due to much longer dwell times. This is why Melbourne changed from double-deck to single decades ago and Sydney is doing the same with many of it's inner city lines. Having one service using single and the other double-deck also makes the service very easily identifiable for customers.

The catenary subways/third rail have the same physical dimensions and can run in similar sized stations and tunnels but I am curious...............can a catenary system also run on third-rail? I'm not saying use it for propulsion but just safely use the same track? If so, the DRL could be used by both the TTC and RER. Anyone know?

 

[amnesiajune]

The RER trains I think will just be standard Metro trains but have catenary and not third rail just like Cleveland. I think RER will definitely use one level trains and save the double-deckers for GO Commuter service. Double-deck works well with people getting on at one station and everyone getting off at Union but for a system with more stations and more people getting on/off at many different locations like RER, they are very problematic and significantly slower due to much longer dwell times. This is why Melbourne changed from double-deck to single decades ago and Sydney is doing the same with many of it's inner city lines. Having one service using single and the other double-deck also makes the service very easily identifiable for customers.

There are cities that use double-deck trains for RER-type service. Paris is one that comes to mind - they have no problem running a train every 90 seconds with double-deck cars. That's more than 20% more frequent than the Yonge Line with ATC once it's set up.

 

[LNahid2000]

There are cities that use double-deck trains for RER-type service. Paris is one that comes to mind - they have no problem running a train every 90 seconds with double-deck cars. That's more than 20% more frequent than the Yonge Line with ATC once it's set up.

And the dwell times aren't that long for Paris' RER. The doors are on the middle level for their double deck cars, so people just have to walk a few steps down or a few steps up when they get to their stop.

 

[Palma]

That's for the year, not the month. A month of Go Transit fares from Pickering to Union is $280, which makes a year add up to nearly $3,400. Commuting from Oshawa to Union by train costs $4,300 per year.

Anyways, the point isn't to subsidize living expenses. The point is to lower the cost of public transit. There are a lot of people -- myself included -- who would have a very reasonable commute time by public transit, but choose to drive instead because transit is significantly slower but costs almost as much as driving. That's completely unacceptable. In my case, I'd be looking at $270/month for a 50 minute bus and subway ride, versus $300/month ($100 for gas, $120 for insurance, $80 on average for maintenance, free parking) for a 25 minute drive. Even if you average out the cost of my car over its lifespan, it's still a difference of less than $25/week to save nearly an hour of commuting time.

A lot of people are in a similar situation to mine. They can take a Go Train for their commute to work, but they don't because they'd have to pay an extra $120/month for a short bus ride from the train station to their workplace. Taking $60 off the cost of the commute makes it more likely that people will choose to take transit.

sorry about that. I obviously did not read the post carefully or think about it. Ya when you think how much money is spindly on an annual basis it is a lot. But not as much as driving with the cost of gas and thats what drivers will say

 

[amnesiajune]

But not as much as driving with the cost of gas and thats what drivers will say

If you have to add on $120/month or more for a TTC bus, it gets pretty close to the cost of driving.

 

[PinkLucy]

Except that you don't have to actually buy a car. Day-to-day, the cost of gas plus parking may come close to the cost of a GO train ride, but factor in the purchase of a car, interest paid on that purchase, ongoing maintenance, insurance, and you're still ahead with transit.

 

[amnesiajune]

Day-to-day, the cost of gas plus parking may come close to the cost of a GO train ride, but factor in the purchase of a car, interest paid on that purchase, ongoing maintenance, insurance, and you're still ahead with transit.

The cost of owning a car is always exaggerated in these forums. You can easily get a car that averages out to $50-60/month over its lifetime. Insurance isn't that expensive either; $100-150/month for most people. On average, gas costs 10¢/km and maintenance costs 3¢/km.

I'll use someone who lives in the north end of Markham and works around Eglinton & Warden as an example. They pay their $200/month for their car and insurance, and driving to work from Mount Joy 20 days/week (50 km round trip) costs them $130/month. That's $330/month, which isn't cheap, but it's still less than spending $220/month on Go Trains and $120/month on TTC fares. With the newly-announced co-fare, taking the train & TTC bus would start to come in slightly cheaper than driving, at $280/month. That might not get a ton of people to switch (especially since most people still need to own their car for things other than commuting), but it will get some to make that change.

 

[aquateam]

According to the Toronto Star:

Average cost of car ownership in Canada in 2014: $437.48 / month or $5 250 / year.

Insurance/parking is probably more expensive in the GTA than elsewhere in Canada, though.

 

[nfitz]

The cost of owning a car is always exaggerated in these forums. You can easily get a car that averages out to $50-60/month over its lifetime. Insurance isn't that expensive either; $100-150/month for most people. On average, gas costs 10¢/km and maintenance costs 3¢/km.

$50-$60/month over lifetime?

Say the car lasts 10 years. 120 months. That's $7,200 to buy the car. If you get 20 years out of it, it's $14,400.

This number seems too low. Also $100 a month for insurance? I'm closer to $110, I'm older so out of the high-risk categories, don't have a particularly expensive car, and don't use it for work, so the insurance is much cheaper.

So 250 km/week. Let's call it 1000 km/month. So $100 for gas, and $30 for maintenance (which also seems low, particularly for a car that only costs $7,200!)

I think most of these numbers are too low.

Though it would be hard to find a good commute, unless perhaps you magically both worked and lived on Warden. I'd probably be driving!

 

[PinkLucy]

Yeah, I want to buy that car that only costs me $50/month.

I”m also about $110/month for insurance with a clean driving record and no claims in 40 years. Insurance goes up when you drive to work (I don’t). My daughter who lives downtown and has an inexpensive car pays about $150/month, but she does drive to work some days and uses GO some days.