GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[reaperexpress]

When you stand at Danforth and Exhibition at rush-hour and you see all those people taking a train to Union, how do you think they are paying?

As one of said people at Danforth Station, I take the GO train and pay single-ride Presto fare on the occasions when I am running late. Normally I would take the subway.

I'd agree with the notion that there are very few people actually buying monthly passes from Danforth to Union. The question is whether people who currently buy Metropasses and commute from Main St. to downtown will fork out the additional $60/month for a GO upgrade. If it were a higher-income area I'd say there's a good chance, but I'm not so sure given the low- to middle-income nature of the immediate surroundings.

 

[nfitz]

I'd agree with the notion that there are very few people actually buying monthly passes from Danforth to Union. The question is whether people who currently buy Metropasses and commute from Main St. to downtown will fork out the additional $60/month for a GO upgrade. If it were a higher-income area I'd say there's a good chance, but I'm not so sure given the low- to middle-income nature of the immediate surroundings.

Low to middle income? Upper Beaches? It's hard to find any house nearby for less than half-a-million, at least on the south side of the tracks. Looking at mls.ca - just south of the tracks is a 3-bedroom semi for $600K. And there's 2 2-bedroom Condos in that newer development to the southeast, for $500K each. On the north there's a 2-bedroom semi at $600K, and detatched house on Morton for $2.4 million. Other than that apartment building at Main/Danforth, there's nothing cheap in the area.

Surely some of the riders are regulars ... there's enough of them getting off the train on the rare occasion I use it in rush-hour (normally I'm coming back on business from further west - otherwise the streetcar is faster for me; by the time I walk 15 minutes to Danforth and then 10 minutes east of Union, I can frequently get to work in 25 minutes on the streetcar). Surely they are spending $180 a month currently - which hardly seems that extreme, given TTC is $134. With an annual subscription, Metropass is $122.5 so $182.5 with sticker. 90 cents more expensive than the $181.60 for just using GO.

Everyone seems to have a Metropass on the streetcar. The area is poor enough that they can't afford $182/month for transit, but they can afford $134? Hmm ...

 

[reaperexpress]

Low to middle income? Upper Beaches? It's hard to find any house nearby for less than half-a-million, at least on the south side of the tracks. Looking at mls.ca - just south of the tracks is a 3-bedroom semi for $600K. And there's 2 2-bedroom Condos in that newer development to the southeast, for $500K each. On the north there's a 2-bedroom semi at $600K, and detatched house on Morton for $2.4 million. Other than that apartment building at Main/Danforth, there's nothing cheap in the area.

I guess my vision of the area is biased from living in said cheap apartment complex. But looking out my window, the stuff immediately around the station doesn't look that fancy, just townhouses and a storage depot. Further away, then yes, there are some pretty nice houses.

In the end, we'll find out a year from now how many people are willing to pay for this now-cheaper luxury. I'm really interested to see how this turns out.

The area is poor enough that they can't afford $182/month for transit, but they can afford $134? Hmm ...

People use Metropasses because it's the cheapest form of transportation for them. A GO sticker would be a luxury, so people strapped for cash wouldn't get one. The price difference is irrelevant.

 

[nfitz]

In the end, we'll find out a year from now how many people are willing to pay for this now-cheaper luxury. I'm really interested to see how this turns out.

Will we? How many years since Go Transit released ridership data for individual stations. I hope we will ...

People use Metropasses because it's the cheapest form of transportation for them. A GO sticker would be a luxury, so people strapped for cash wouldn't get one. The price difference is irrelevant.

Then there wouldn't be people constantly arriving at Danforth GO station in PM rush from Union. They'd be on the subway instead.

The cost difference of getting the GO sticker is $60 ... $51 after the tax credit. It pays for itself with 10 trips - 5 round trips. None of these people using Danforth station are making more than 5 round trips a month? Good grief, I do that some months just heading to Exhibition to go to soccer games, combined with the odd random trip to/from Union ... but I don't get the tax credit for these occasional trips using Presto.

 

[bobbob911]

There aren't people constantly arriving at Danforth GO station. Its extremely lightly used, both in the morning and at night. (I ride on Lakeshore East line to Union daily)

 

[nfitz]

There aren't people constantly arriving at Danforth GO station. Its extremely lightly used, both in the morning and at night. (I ride on Lakeshore East line to Union daily)

I get off there frequently in rush hour. When I step onto the platform, there's always people walking to the door, and down the stairs. There always seems to be other people getting off the same door I'm getting off.

In the June 2013 Parking and Station Access Plan, Metrolinx published the anticipated 2031 forecast ridership and % increase from 2011. This allows one to calculate the 2011 ridership (boardings) for each station. Some examples are:

Danforth - 250
Exhibition - 50
Long Branch - 65 (though in retrospect, this looks wrong).
Kipling - 290
Acton - 200
Kitchener - 100
Guelph - 290
Bloor - 50
Bradford - 285
York - 50
Kennedy - 65
Linconville - 140

Sure, it's not as busy as other Lakeshore East stations - but it better used than many stations in Toronto, or even out at the edge of the system.

 

[TOareaFan]

I get off there frequently in rush hour. When I step onto the platform, there's always people walking to the door, and down the stairs. There always seems to be other people getting off the same door I'm getting off.

In the June 2013 Parking and Station Access Plan, Metrolinx published the anticipated 2031 forecast ridership and % increase from 2011. This allows one to calculate the 2011 ridership (boardings) for each station. Some examples are:

Danforth - 250
Exhibition - 50
Long Branch - 50
Kipling - 290
Acton - 200
Kitchener - 100
Guelph - 290
Bloor - 50
Bradford - 285
York - 50
Kennedy - 65
Linconville - 140

Sure, it's not as busy as other Lakeshore East stations - but it better used than many stations in Toronto, or even out at the edge of the system.

Is that ridership per day? Most surprising one for me there is Long Branch

 

[wopchop]

Is that ridership per day? Most surprising one for me there is Long Branch

I'm a Long Branch user and find that number surprising.

It's frustrating because there is potential to increase it significantly. It connects to a streetcar! But to reach that potential, the 501 on Lakeshore needs to improved with 1) better route management / frequency and/or 2) It's own ROW, as well. This station would also greatly benefit by having more bike-lock-up facilities, as it has barely any, despite a large local cycling community.

The lack of parking (and most of it is reserved parking) also discourages a lot of local drivers or occasional users IMO, but that isn't easy to accommodate with the site location. Another deterrent to drivers is the station access. The lot exit is at a stop sign onto Lakeshore, which has right-of-way in both directions. This greatly slows down the exit process. I've heard a lot of people complain about this.

There is actually a fair bit of development happening in the vicinity of this station (Mississauga's Lakeview & Anchors to the West and Minto Long Branch to the East) so it should be interesting to see if it seems to get busier.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm a Long Branch user and find that number surprising.

It's frustrating because there is potential to increase it significantly. It connects to a streetcar! But to reach that potential, the 501 on Lakeshore needs to improved with 1) better route management / frequency and/or 2) It's own ROW, as well. This station would also greatly benefit by having more bike-lock-up facilities, as it has barely any, despite a large local cycling community.

The lack of parking (and most of it is reserved parking) also discourages a lot of local drivers or occasional users IMO, but that isn't easy to accommodate with the site location. Another deterrent to drivers is the station access. The lot exit is at a stop sign onto Lakeshore, which has right-of-way in both directions. This greatly slows down the exit process. I've heard a lot of people complain about this.

There is actually a fair bit of development happening in the vicinity of this station (Mississauga's Lakeview & Anchors to the West and Minto Long Branch to the East) so it should be interesting to see if it seems to get busier.

The idea has sort of gone away (I think) but about a year ago Minister Murray was on all the radio talk shows talking about an idea of putting electronic signs on the Gardiner alerting drivers stuck in traffic of available parking spots at Long Branch and Mimico (the idea would be "don't wait in traffic to get downtown....park and ride the GO")....it was funny to me as a weekend user of Long Branch I know how short they are of parking and how many are reserved.

 

[nfitz]

Is that ridership per day? Most surprising one for me there is Long Branch

Boardings. Presumably double this to have comparable numbers to TTC station counts (at http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway_ridership_2013.pdf) - the lowest number is Ellesmere, which would be 645 if you just used half.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Even the busiest GO line is only about 60,000 a day. That would be 30,000 boardings. Just a bit more than the TTC 504 King streetcar. The least-used GO Train is only 10,000 a day (Richmond Hill). The same ridership as TTC 12 Kingston Road bus. The entire GO operation is fairly minor compared to TTC. I think people forget this sometimes.

 

[nfitz]

I'm a Long Branch user and find that number surprising.

Looking closer, I wonder if there's a mistake for Long Branch. It notes that projected 2031 ridership is 100, a 50% increase from 2011. And then it says there are 282 parking spots. And that currently the parking lot is 100% used. But only 38% of passengers drive.

If you redo the math based on parking spots, then the current ridership is 742 not 50 ... hmm, which should have be 67- I goofed my math based on 2031). Hmm, I wonder if 2031 should have been 1,000 or 1,100 not 100. Typo?

I dread to check the other ones ... I wouldn't be surprised if nothing adds up.

 

[TOareaFan]

Looking closer, I wonder if there's a mistake for Long Branch. It notes that projected 2031 ridership is 100, a 50% increase from 2011. And then it says there are 282 parking spots. And that currently the parking lot is 100% used. But only 38% of passengers drive.

If you redo the math based on parking spots, then the current ridership is 742 not 50 ... hmm, which should have be 67- I goofed my math based on 2031). Hmm, I wonder if 2031 should have been 1,000 or 1,100 not 100. Typo?

I dread to check the other ones ... I wouldn't be surprised if nothing adds up.

Yah that makes it bit more sense....even the 742 assumes that no cars bring more than 1 rider.

 

[ssiguy2]

The reality is that GO rail ridership is extremely poor compared to it's world contemporaries.

GO rail actually has one of the largest commuter rail systems in the world, far larger than most at 440km. This is backed up by very larger downtown employment which should greatly enhance ridership but it doesn't do much. The reasons are twofold.......excessively high fares and the fact that's it's useless for most people in the city due to lack of fare integration.

If GO is to become a real alternative for all Torontonians as opposed to those with extra cash lying around it will have to transform itself from the commuter style system it is today to a U-Bahn/Berlin or suburban rail/Sydney-Melbourne transit system. That means a frequent system that is accessible to everyone and not just those who can afford extra fares.

 

[wopchop]

Looking closer, I wonder if there's a mistake for Long Branch. It notes that projected 2031 ridership is 100, a 50% increase from 2011. And then it says there are 282 parking spots. And that currently the parking lot is 100% used. But only 38% of passengers drive.

If you redo the math based on parking spots, then the current ridership is 742 not 50 ... hmm, which should have be 67- I goofed my math based on 2031). Hmm, I wonder if 2031 should have been 1,000 or 1,100 not 100. Typo?

I dread to check the other ones ... I wouldn't be surprised if nothing adds up.

Interesting. I should of thought of that. If the 742 number is right for Long Branch, assuming the 50% growth, the 2031 ridership should be approx 1113 riders

I looked at Mimico and it seems OK. Mimico should have ~616 2011 total riders with 240 arriving by car at 174 spots that are 101% utilized. Seems plausible, if some cars have 1+ people in them.

 

[nfitz]

The reality is that GO rail ridership is extremely poor compared to it's world contemporaries.

There are certainly a few better ones. There's a lot worse ones.

Check out Vancouver, even Montreal. Even Chicago ridership numers pale compared to what they should be.

And how about that Ottawa commuter train network?