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GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload

^ @salsa links a tweet https://twitter.com/SwanBoatSteve?lang=en that covers three separate interviews. @sixrings links the Miller one above, and I linked the Yurek only one. Munro's recollection is confused or out of context for some his claims on Paikin's statements.

I suggest watching the vid
to see what was said. Munro can be unreasonable at times, and this is a case of it.

Edit to Add: I'm starting to watch the vid a third time, and some of Munro's comments are either complete misrepresentations or out of context. I repeat my earlier claim, Paikin is exquisite in teasing out the answers that matter, not playing Munro's game of 'catch the culprit on minutia'. It's only 17 mins, I recommend watching it, not reading someone's notes.

What Paikin used in a set-up for Yurek is what was popularly claimed at the time: (Paikin then challenged the claim and the response after by using third-person reference, Munro should cut back on the caffeine)
TTC named best public transit agency in North America | The Star

I suggest watching the vid, and ignore Munro's "I know best" diatribe for now. Make no mistake, I too hold Yurek to account, but Paikin nails him on a few points that count and the rest flows because Paikin has a sense of decorum that Munro lacks. I like and read Munro, but he can be a surly fug sometimes.

Yurek came across as more sensible than I thought he would. There's some relief in knowing that some ministers are able to work around Ford. The interview is more about getting a sense of Yurek's character rather than revealing any bombshells we don't know about.
 
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Any transit advocate who spends a decade following our transit development can become testy. I don't blame anyone for being surely after following basically plan after plan being cancelled or delayed countless times over four decades.
 
sixrings said:
Any transit advocate who spends a decade following our transit development can become testy. I don't blame anyone for being surely after following basically plan after plan being cancelled or delayed countless times over four decades.
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Then do it with those that deserve it, not allies. Munro has actually pissed me off in his criticisms of Paikin, who has a demeanour that allows blunt questions without making his guest uneasy and obtrusive.

Munro has a habit of completely missing the gist of others at times, and then demeaning them for his own shortcomings. I'm short of time to itemize more of Munro's misplaced comments, but there's a number of them, to the point that it indicates he's hearing just what he wants, not what's actually being stated.

Watch the interview, don't read Munro's twitter twaddle and expect to have an understanding of what actually transpired.
 
salsa said:
Steve Munro wrote a pretty good summary on Twitter, which I've copied below:


TVO's The Agenda featured three interviews on the subject of Toronto's transit and the proposed subway "upload". In the first, Minister @JeffYurekMPP sounds ever so reasonable, but @spaikin let him get away with some howlers about the system.

2. Shortly into the interview, Yurek claims that any rider today will agree that "the system isn't working", but that's the existing system, and provincial plans are silent on how that will be improved.

3. Yurek claims that if you look over the past 15 years, the Crosstown is the only project that is near to completion. He ignores the Vaughan subway opened in late 2017. This error has been pointed out before, and Yurek wounds his credibility by repeating it.

4. As @iamdavidmiller would later point out, an LRT network plan was cancelled by the Fords, not by some mythic dysfunctional city council over which they had no control. Their problem was that Rob Ford hated streetcars and anything with Miller's name on it.

5. Yurek was evasive on many issues under the guise of budget confidentiality, but was happy to slag Toronto/TTC for cost overruns on projects without acknowledging that the Province has a goodly share of those too. He was not challenged on these claims.

6. Notably absent through the discussion was the fate of the existing system. Everything was about building new lines. But DoFo ran on uploading "the subway", not just new builds, and taking the cost of both construction and maintenance off of the city's hands.

7. Miller and others made the point about the importance of a network of lines. This speaks to existing rapid transit, new builds like Waterfront that are not part of Ford's plan, and to routes overall that serve more than a few corridors of interest.

8. People ride many bus and streetcar lines that will not be helped one bit by the big ticket rapid transit projects, and all riders depend on the existing system staying at least as good as is and improving their ride, their transit experience.

9. @spaikin mentioned the APTA Transit System of the Year award for the TTC back in 2017. That was for Byford's management plan, not for quality of service as it is so often misconstrued. Byford seemed to pursue this award as part of his "audition" for his NYC job.

10. It was good to hear @JeffYurekMPP say that the province does not intend to download costs on Toronto, but this could be sophistry if the costs and revenues left in city hands worsen the city's ability to fund and operate the TTC.

11. The contribution by @iamdavidmiller in the second segment was the most focused and it was refreshing to hear David back on the Toronto political scene.

12. Paikin made an amusing error when he referred to the boundaries of the City of Toronto as the Don and Humber Rivers. Try the Rouge and Etobicoke Creek.

13. Miller emphasized the "network" issue, but even here, there is a problem of terminology that most people thinks this means the rapid transit network, not the entire system of buses, streetcars and subways, and GO for that matter. Nothing in the provincial plan addresses this.

14. Moreover, cross-border travel 905-416 is a sore point that building new subways won't fix. Whether it's the Yonge extension or a much-improved GO corridor, Richmond Hill riders face the question of what should be an appropriate fare for their travel.

15. Possibly because this is a Toronto-centric debate about subways, nobody talked about the relatively poor quality of service on 905's transit systems. A truly regional system will require much better service "out there" and on routes that don't just exist as subway feeders.

16. The third segment https://www.tvo.org/video/debating-transit-planning-in-toronto … features the @TorontoRBOT 's @stateofthecity and @CodeRedTO 's @pkbwood . With a debate rather than a one-on-one, we see the do sides of "do we trust DoFo" question.

17. The Board of Trade wants more uploading to the province, although it is unclear that Queen's Park wants anything beyond a few subway lines and GO, and particularly not the cost of maintaining and improving local systems.

18. CodeRedTO fears that a governance model debate will avoid the basic question of what Toronto needs and how "who's in charge" will affect the transit riders see day to day. Both sides were bogged down in the debate about the new subway proposals.

19. @spaikin erred in a reference to the Waterfront LRT line as something @SidewalkToronto would "pay for". This is not correct. Sidewalk offers to finance the line, and then only the portion of it that directly serves their development (although this may have changed).

20. Financing the line is lending money to the city, which is not the same as "paying for" it. This is an important distinction. Back in @JeffYurekMPP 's piece, there was reference to how Woodbine GO Station will be built by developers of a nearby entertainment complex.

21. The cost of a GO station on an existing line is a fraction of the cost of a subway station on a new one, and this financing/funding model does not scale up to subway construction. Moreover, there's a lot of "in between" space on any line that will not attract developer $$$.

22/22 It was an interesting program to watch if only to see the positions each party takes, but there are many unanswered questions, and a better-informed interview might have brought out more details.
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"Mystic disfunctional city council" that defentily sounds like the Ford way of doing things!
 
Munro is a bit melodramatic and this is a case and point. He harps on not giving specifics but he damn well knows that the province cannot release ANY details of a budget before it is presented at QP.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Munro is a bit melodramatic and this is a case and point. He harps on not giving specifics but he damn well knows that the province cannot release ANY details of a budget before it is presented at QP.
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It goes beyond that in this instance, and it's 'over the line' as far as I'm concerned:

He's nit-picking Paikin's 'failing to call' his guests on every peccadillo, when such minutia is only an irritant in Munro's eye, while Paikin is revealing a much bigger picture in which such minutia are irrelevant.

Paikin carefully cornered Yurek in a game of 'name the figure'. Yurek knew he couldn't/shouldn't name a figure (gist) "Fedeli would have me lynched, that's his job come the Budget", so Paikin flipped it over, and offered a few figures off the top of his head. IIRC, "$100M?" and the answer was affirmative, even if not a discreet "yes". That allows the viewer to garner a number of conclusions, Paikin has done his job, and Yurek revealed more than he could if it had been pushed from the other direction.

How that gives Munro the latitude to demean Paikin is a puzzle.

Addendum: Yurek reminds me of someone in politics I believe, could be national or provincial, that he's the almost spitting image of. Probably goes back decades, but he looks and acts in such a familiar way.

It's a bit of a throwback in politics, where his measured and considered responses (by and large) are easy to relate to, even when disagreeing with him.

He's not often touted as 'one of the up and comers' for the Ont PC Party leadership, but he should be. I'm not for a moment excusing his need to account, but he understands and appreciates that. He's sure a breath of fresh air in Ontario politics of late.
 
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steveintoronto said:
^ @salsa links a tweet https://twitter.com/SwanBoatSteve?lang=en that covers three separate interviews. @sixrings links the Miller one above, and I linked the Yurek only one. Munro's recollection is confused or out of context for some his claims on Paikin's statements.

I suggest watching the vid
to see what was said. Munro can be unreasonable at times, and this is a case of it.

Edit to Add: I'm starting to watch the vid a third time, and some of Munro's comments are either complete misrepresentations or out of context. I repeat my earlier claim, Paikin is exquisite in teasing out the answers that matter, not playing Munro's game of 'catch the culprit on minutia'. It's only 17 mins, I recommend watching it, not reading someone's notes.

What Paikin used in a set-up for Yurek is what was popularly claimed at the time: (Paikin then challenged the claim and the response after by using third-person reference, Munro should cut back on the caffeine)
TTC named best public transit agency in North America | The Star

I suggest watching the vid, and ignore Munro's "I know best" diatribe for now. Make no mistake, I too hold Yurek to account, but Paikin nails him on a few points that count and the rest flows because Paikin has a sense of decorum that Munro lacks. I like and read Munro, but he can be a surly fug sometimes.

Yurek came across as more sensible than I thought he would. There's some relief in knowing that some ministers are able to work around Ford. The interview is more about getting a sense of Yurek's character rather than revealing any bombshells we don't know about.
Click to expand...

Not speaking for Munro, but imo Paiken did go pretty easy on Yurek. Specifically with regards to the Prov's history of building transit. Miller broached it lightly but definitely didn't go deep enough. It's a pretty spotty record for all parties going back to post-Davis. Electrification was justified almost 40yrs ago and over the next ten just one line seems like a maybe.

But even the last gov't (that was super transit-friendly)...is the record that great? Finch, Sheppard, Hurontario, Hamilton. These are all fairly small project in the grand scheme. Ok obviously they're huge with explosive local benefit, but ultimately they're tram-style LRTs not unlike St Clair or Spadina. So for them to take over fifteen year to maybe get just one up and running...that's not very good. So far the Prov's only proof of building raid transit seems to be Crosstown: one line out of many promised (and some funded), and even then it was severely cut short and seemingly handed back to the local gov't to finish the rest. So with these things in mind while watching I think Paiken was fairly gentle with Yurek.
 
It's a combination of actual budget secrecy and marketing. It's been common practice in recent years to release little bonbons in dribs and drabs leading up to the actual event, when it's to achieve a desired effect. Personally, I look forward to hearing where these guys thing they're going to find the $25 billion for subways (subways, subways). If they can - and without revenue tools, no doubt - more power to them.

I've also gotten more and more tired of Munro over the years. He's rarely 100% wrong but he's also got very set-in-stone opinions and one can basically predict what he'll say anytime anyone named Ford, anyone at Metrolinx or really anyone right of David Miller opens their mouth on transit.

In sum those 3 interviews are a very solid package Paikin and The Agenda put together. Yurek said a bunch of eye-rolling things, no question, but then so did David Miller, IMHO (though I'd generally agree more with him than Yurek). And while I initially thought it would have been better to have all those people interviewed together, it probably would have devolved into a big mess. At least this way everyone got to speak their piece and the 7 billion people who aren't Steve Munro can watch and make their own determination.
 
steveintoronto said:
"Budget Secrecy".
Ontario PC government’s first budget set for April 11
By Staff The Canadian Press
https://globalnews.ca/news/5030255/ontario-pc-governments-first-budget/
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The lack of transparency in QP is one of my biggest pet peeves with our political system. When we elect our four year dictatorship, trying to figure out what the government is planning is like getting water from the moon (possible, but extraordinarily difficult). And most of the time the secrecy is motivated by purely political concerns, and not because the information is truly sensitive.

I’d much prefer if QP were as transparent as our municipal governments
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
It's been common practice in recent years to release little bonbons in dribs and drabs leading up to the actual event, when it's to achieve a desired effect.
Click to expand...
Indeed, "budget secrecy" used to be absolute at one time, still is in some aspects for show, like releasing it to the media, then embargoing them until release date. Those who claim the right to secrecy now are the ones who purposely leak selective bits of it. The marketing aspect is unmistakable, they play it for all it's worth...pun intended. But Yurek was only using the excuse, valid though it is, as rote. He's also Deferring to Fedeli (sounds like a song, or a mystery movie) to be a good Droog. What surprised me most about Yurek was his affability. Paikin will definitely have him back, and Yurek will comply, and I'll be looking to watch that. (pun unavoidable, if you see what I mean)
TheTigerMaster said:
I’d much prefer if QP were as transparent as our municipal governments
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Whoa...bad example to pick. I get your gist though. Canada is well behind almost, if not all, other Western nations on FOI. Surprisingly we're well behind the US even!
Niagara Region recognized as Canada’s most secretive municipal government
Free expression and press organizations award Region for its ‘dishonour’
NEWS Oct 15, 2018 by Grant LaFleche The St. Catharines Standard

Niagara's regional government has been recognized by a quartet of national journalism and free expression organizations as the most secretive municipality in Canada.

During a Monday morning news conference in downtown St. Catharines, Jim Turk, director of the Centre for Free Expression at Ryerson University, announced Niagara Region the winner of the annual "Code of Silence" award for "outstanding achievement in government secrecy."

The award was jointly given by the CFE, the Canadian Association for Journalists, News Media Canada and Canadian Journalists for Free Expression.

Delays and denials of freedom of information requests, a lack of transparency about councillor expenses, illegal seizure of a journalist's computer and notes, a tainted CAO hiring process and frequent refusal by senior regional leaders to speak to the press were cited as reasons for the shameful distinction.

"We are presenting this certificate to them in recognition of their dishonour," said Turk.

The organizations formed a jury that examined nominated municipalities across Canada for the award for federal, provincial and municipal governments and agencies. It settled on the Region as this year's winner in the municipal category.

Last year's winner was Toronto Hydro, and Turk said governments and agencies around the nation are considered.[...]
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https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca...canada-s-most-secretive-municipal-government/

Ont munis are also very bad at complying with open government policies. One example of many:
Closed-door meeting ruled illegal by ombudsman
NEWS Nov 30, 2015 Niagara Falls Review

A closed-door meeting held by a Niagara Region task force in May has been deemed illegal by the acting Ontario ombudsman.

Barbara Finlay has completed her investigation into the inaugural meeting of the Region’s long-term care task force, ruling it contravened the open meeting provision of the Municipal Act, as well as the Region’s procedure bylaw.

Public notice of the meeting was not provided, no procedure was followed to close the meeting to the public, and the task force’s discussion did not fall within any of the closed-meeting exceptions, Finlay’s ruling reads.

Neither the agenda nor the minutes of the meeting were made public, the document states.

The investigation was launched following a June complaint filed by then St. Catharines Standard reporter Rob Houle. [...]
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https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/news-story/8184245-closed-door-meeting-ruled-illegal-by-ombudsman/

Most of these rulings are ignored, town halls continue to do as they want with no consequence, and Ontario ombudspeople are fired instead.
 
sixrings said:
Miller advocates for the drl and the network of Transit city. But hey Miller is all about lrts.
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Kind of rich that Miller would now come out and say that the city needs the DRL and bitches at Ford for not prioritizing it when he completely ignored it's need when he was mayor. Of all people that should shut their mouths about the DRL it's Miller.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Kind of rich that Miller would now come out and say that the city needs the DRL and bitches at Ford for not prioritizing it when he completely ignored it's need when he was mayor. Of all people that should shut their mouths about the DRL it's Miller.
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This and the way he kept talking about the subway to "Richmond Hill and beyond" as if he didn't even know where the subway went (ie about 500m into the town) were the two things he kept doing in the interview that annoyed me. He's smart and it's a shame his plan didn't get built (particularly given the circumstances) but he's not perfect neither.
 
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