King of Kensington
Senior Member
I know it's tempting to say Stephen Harper, but I'd say Robert Borden goes down in history as the most reactionary PM in Canadian history (War Measures Act, put people who opposed the war into labor camps, etc.)
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Greatest PM ever?? Worst Ever??? Most influential /well known??
- Thread starter lordmandeep
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ShonTron
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Totally agree, though Harper combines the politics of Borden (replace Britain with the US) with the viscousness of Meighen, Canada's meanest PM. Borden was not a nice man either, nor a good PM.
Just because he appears on one of our bills, doesn't make him great. Besides MacDonald, they had to at least have one more Conservative like King and Laurier, who else would it be? Dief? Mackenzie? (Anyway, take the Queen off the $20 and rotate the figures like they do in Mexico and Britain between political greats and literary, scientific and diplomatic figures, like Pearson (the Diplomat), Banting and Best, Fox, Brock, Baldwin and Lafontaine.)
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Fair enough.
I agree with your observation on Mulroney's skills at obfuscation. That he could do well.
urbanboom
Active Member
To be honest, I thought that Mulroney was a good PM (not including the whole Scheiber thing - that's a whole other story).
He was good for his time, much in the way Thatcher and Trudeau were. While Trudeau gave us our "just" society, Mulroney brought about the economic change that Chretien inherited and is mistakenly accredited for.
He was good for his time, much in the way Thatcher and Trudeau were. While Trudeau gave us our "just" society, Mulroney brought about the economic change that Chretien inherited and is mistakenly accredited for.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Sorry, but the best the Mulroney regime can be credited with was wanting to make economic change.
Chretien's government was the one who made the hard choices, not Mulroney's.
Chretien's government was the one who made the hard choices, not Mulroney's.
urbanboom
Active Member
I'm not saying that the Chretien/Martin team didn't do a good job strengthening the economy, I'm saying that Mulroney isn't given his due credit. Most Canadians who worshiped Trudeau like a god, (myself being an avid admirer) didn't see his horrible spending habbits. Mulroney inherited the deficit. He didn't create it.
I also admired his attempt get Quebec to ratify the constitution. Although Meach Lake and Charlottetown didn't work, he did try to secure our country for good. Mulroney also eclipses the others on his environmental record.
That being said, I think he was a good PM, but he shouldn't be counted among the best. But if he was our worst PM, then this country must be truly blessed by great leadership.
I also admired his attempt get Quebec to ratify the constitution. Although Meach Lake and Charlottetown didn't work, he did try to secure our country for good. Mulroney also eclipses the others on his environmental record.
That being said, I think he was a good PM, but he shouldn't be counted among the best. But if he was our worst PM, then this country must be truly blessed by great leadership.
ShonTron
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As much as I detest Mulroney, he wasn't our worst PM. There are a few good things to say about him, even though I believe he did take kickbacks, destroyed VIA for the sake of showing the international lenders that he was "serious" about the deficit/debt (BTW, he left Canada in a far worse state than Trudeau), and engaged in pandering to the US and Quebec and allowed his coalition of Ontario Red Tories, Quebec Nationalists and Western SocReds to fall apart. He was bad, but Bennett was the worst, followed by Meighen.
Chretien/Martin made the tough choices. I can't stand Paul Martin, but he did what he though was right, but I blame him for a lot of our current problems by dumping so much on the provinces to "fix the deficit", who dumped on the municipalities, then hiding surpluses for Debt-GDP ratios rather than necessary spending. (With unimaginative away, I know I won't be challenged too much for now for my opinion on Martin.)
Mulroney was one of the few to take a stand on Apartheid. At times, I think he meant well, like with Meech, though his attempts were disastrous, as if Dief was running the show. But there's so much that he did wrong, so wrong, that people forget the few things he honestly tried to do right.
Worst PM? No. But the worst in the last 50 years, because I don't count interludes like Clark, Turner or Campbell. Martin comes second worst (as PM), Diefenbaker third.
Chretien/Martin made the tough choices. I can't stand Paul Martin, but he did what he though was right, but I blame him for a lot of our current problems by dumping so much on the provinces to "fix the deficit", who dumped on the municipalities, then hiding surpluses for Debt-GDP ratios rather than necessary spending. (With unimaginative away, I know I won't be challenged too much for now for my opinion on Martin.)
Mulroney was one of the few to take a stand on Apartheid. At times, I think he meant well, like with Meech, though his attempts were disastrous, as if Dief was running the show. But there's so much that he did wrong, so wrong, that people forget the few things he honestly tried to do right.
Worst PM? No. But the worst in the last 50 years, because I don't count interludes like Clark, Turner or Campbell. Martin comes second worst (as PM), Diefenbaker third.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Sir John Abbott
- first Canadian prime minister to be born on Canadian soil.
- first Senator to become Prime Minister of Canada.
- first Canadian prime minister to be a member of both the House of Commons and the Senate.
It's interesting that until John Turner we did not have an immigrant as PM since Charles Tupper. It's nice to see my mother-country representing Canada well in history...Sir John Alexander Macdonald (born Glasgow, Scotland 1815) Alexander Mackenzie (born Scotland 1822), Sir Mackenzie Bowell (born England 1823), Charles Tupper (born England 1821), John Turner (born England 1929).
- first Canadian prime minister to be born on Canadian soil.
- first Senator to become Prime Minister of Canada.
- first Canadian prime minister to be a member of both the House of Commons and the Senate.
It's interesting that until John Turner we did not have an immigrant as PM since Charles Tupper. It's nice to see my mother-country representing Canada well in history...Sir John Alexander Macdonald (born Glasgow, Scotland 1815) Alexander Mackenzie (born Scotland 1822), Sir Mackenzie Bowell (born England 1823), Charles Tupper (born England 1821), John Turner (born England 1929).
lordmandeep
Banned
really the problem with saying Mulroney could not do not anything about the deficit that Trudeau left is hogwash...
Mulroney stayed in office and the unemployment rate still stayed at high levels and the deficit grew.
You can blame the man who started the problem but after being at the helm after 9 years, it is 100% your own fault then.
Sure Mulroney laid the foundation that really helped Canada latter, but it was Chretien and Martin who showed real fiscal conservatism in the mid 90's. Sure it lead to a disaster on the provincial level, however it allowed Canada to have a sustainable federal govt and that has put Canada at a huge advantage over everyone else.
Those were hard times for Canada and hard decisions had to be made. Nothing like the sissy fits that go on now...
Mulroney stayed in office and the unemployment rate still stayed at high levels and the deficit grew.
You can blame the man who started the problem but after being at the helm after 9 years, it is 100% your own fault then.
Sure Mulroney laid the foundation that really helped Canada latter, but it was Chretien and Martin who showed real fiscal conservatism in the mid 90's. Sure it lead to a disaster on the provincial level, however it allowed Canada to have a sustainable federal govt and that has put Canada at a huge advantage over everyone else.
Those were hard times for Canada and hard decisions had to be made. Nothing like the sissy fits that go on now...
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kEiThZ
Superstar
I too am a big fan of LBP. A true Canadian nationalist.
What really bugs me these days is there aren't too many real nationalists. We have politicians on the left that essentially define themselves by their anti-Americanism and their multilateralism (if the UN says it, it must be true) and on the right we have those who think anything the Americans do deserves to be imitated right away both domestically and internationally. There are very few true nationalists who stand up for Canada and Canada's interests like politicians of yester-year.
What really bugs me these days is there aren't too many real nationalists. We have politicians on the left that essentially define themselves by their anti-Americanism and their multilateralism (if the UN says it, it must be true) and on the right we have those who think anything the Americans do deserves to be imitated right away both domestically and internationally. There are very few true nationalists who stand up for Canada and Canada's interests like politicians of yester-year.
lordmandeep
Banned
True so very true...
ungodlycrosscheck
New Member
Glad to see someone acknowledged Mulroney's leadership role in the Commonwealth to fight apartheid. He was pivotal in getting sanctions imposed against the SA government.
Overlooked was the extraordinary work he did on concluding the Acid Rain Treaty with the US. It was his force of character and personal relationship with the Oval Office that made that possible... he had nothing but the coal fired electricity industry and numerous state governors against him. No small task.
His environmental record was second to none, and he is rightly recognized as Canada's greenest Prime Minister.
His economic record is remarkably solid. Replacing the manufacturers sales task with a visible point of sale tax (one of the most efficent and envied VATs in the world) was politically difficult but the right business decision. Likewise closer integration to a continental free trade market was also a masterstroke. Without those two policies the stage would not have been set for the surplus years that the Liberals got the credit for.
He is far from the worst Prime Minister, in fact he may be one of the best although I think that distinction belongs to Sir John A. Excluding the one term wonders and short duration PMs, my vote for worst would go to Pierre Trudeau for his divisive politics and business stupidity.
Overlooked was the extraordinary work he did on concluding the Acid Rain Treaty with the US. It was his force of character and personal relationship with the Oval Office that made that possible... he had nothing but the coal fired electricity industry and numerous state governors against him. No small task.
His environmental record was second to none, and he is rightly recognized as Canada's greenest Prime Minister.
His economic record is remarkably solid. Replacing the manufacturers sales task with a visible point of sale tax (one of the most efficent and envied VATs in the world) was politically difficult but the right business decision. Likewise closer integration to a continental free trade market was also a masterstroke. Without those two policies the stage would not have been set for the surplus years that the Liberals got the credit for.
He is far from the worst Prime Minister, in fact he may be one of the best although I think that distinction belongs to Sir John A. Excluding the one term wonders and short duration PMs, my vote for worst would go to Pierre Trudeau for his divisive politics and business stupidity.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
The other thing going in Mulroney's favor is how he influenced later politics. Most of the policies Jean Chretien enacted were a continuation of Mulroney's in every way that matters. Whereas Mulroney introduced the FTA, Chretien ratified NAFTA. Whereas Mulroney introduced the GST, Chretien kept it. Whereas Mulroney started the privatization process which would see, among others, Crown Corps like Air Canada or PetroCanada privatized, Chretien went further by (for instance) eventually privatizing CN Rail. Whereas Mulroney finally ended the NEP (which may take the prize for worst policy decision of modern Canada), Chretien was absolutely terrified to enact anything which might be interpreted as prejudicial to the West. Chretien/Martin had the notable success of restraining spending and ending the deficit, but they did so by overcoming their idealogical objections (esp. wrt to Free Trade & the GST) and building on many of his successes. It's sort of similar to how Clinton succeeded by enacting policies which were fairly Reaganesque in nature (i.e. welfare reform) or how Tony Blair really built on Margaret Thatcher's liberalization of the British economy.
Mulroney also seems to be the last time Canada had anything like a foreign policy. Though I understand and agree with Chretien's decision to focus on domestic matters (i.e. the '95 referendum), it is dissapointing how much Canada has retreated from the world stage since Mulroney. As mentioned, Mulroney was key in what would eventually become the world's largest trade block (NAFTA), the Montreal Protocol which would tackle ozone depletion, prompt responses to famine in Ethiopia, and a commendable stand against Apartheid. They wouldn't necessarily be my priorities, but he has a fairly commendable list of foreign policy achievements. Under Chretien though our foreign service was gutted, the military left (unusually) underfunded and our only significant foreign policy achievement was to sign on to the Kyoto protocol, which it was quite clear we had no intention of abiding anyways. Worse, the myth of Canada as a "nation of peacekeepers" was turned into something like dogma to paper over the glaring holes in our foreign affairs.
Mulroney also seems to be the last time Canada had anything like a foreign policy. Though I understand and agree with Chretien's decision to focus on domestic matters (i.e. the '95 referendum), it is dissapointing how much Canada has retreated from the world stage since Mulroney. As mentioned, Mulroney was key in what would eventually become the world's largest trade block (NAFTA), the Montreal Protocol which would tackle ozone depletion, prompt responses to famine in Ethiopia, and a commendable stand against Apartheid. They wouldn't necessarily be my priorities, but he has a fairly commendable list of foreign policy achievements. Under Chretien though our foreign service was gutted, the military left (unusually) underfunded and our only significant foreign policy achievement was to sign on to the Kyoto protocol, which it was quite clear we had no intention of abiding anyways. Worse, the myth of Canada as a "nation of peacekeepers" was turned into something like dogma to paper over the glaring holes in our foreign affairs.
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Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Learning about Canada's Prime Ministers and their history...
Everyone: This is a very interesting topic for someone like me that wants to learn something interesting about the USA's Northern neighbor and its Government. There is a interesting history lesson here!
I will remember Brian Mulroney for making the 1990 VIA Rail cutbacks and how he matched up with Ronald Reagan as conservatives.
I feel that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was an influential but controversial figure at times-remembered by me also for his jet-setting wife Maggie and her mentions in the gossip columns of her escapades in cities like NYC...
There were failures like Joe Clark in his brief term(s) also.
I will take notice about this subject and how it evolves... thoughts from LI MIKE
Everyone: This is a very interesting topic for someone like me that wants to learn something interesting about the USA's Northern neighbor and its Government. There is a interesting history lesson here!
I will remember Brian Mulroney for making the 1990 VIA Rail cutbacks and how he matched up with Ronald Reagan as conservatives.
I feel that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was an influential but controversial figure at times-remembered by me also for his jet-setting wife Maggie and her mentions in the gossip columns of her escapades in cities like NYC...
There were failures like Joe Clark in his brief term(s) also.
I will take notice about this subject and how it evolves... thoughts from LI MIKE
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Trudeau was definitely our classiest PM, and there was a certain national pride in that. Especially when the US had total dolts like Nixon and Ford, it was nice to have someone who was fiercely bright and charismatic.
On the policy side of things though, I think history will be harsh on PET. His economic policy was disastrous. The National Energy Program is easily the single worst piece of legislation since WWII for so many reasons. To this day the Liberals have difficulty getting a seat West of Ontario. He also politicized many social programs, notably EI, to the point where they became vote buying tools and had no impact on underlying social issues.
On the policy side of things though, I think history will be harsh on PET. His economic policy was disastrous. The National Energy Program is easily the single worst piece of legislation since WWII for so many reasons. To this day the Liberals have difficulty getting a seat West of Ontario. He also politicized many social programs, notably EI, to the point where they became vote buying tools and had no impact on underlying social issues.