GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[chrisw]

Before Alstom sent out the email to their employees telling them about the delay in the takeover one was sent to all Metrolinx staff telling them that the delay was 9 months. OnXpress will take over September 1st, 2025.

This has long been expected. What is surprising is that it took them so long to officially notify staff.

Dan

Well, hopefully more staff can get trained up.

 

[nfitz]

Before Alstom sent out the email to their employees telling them about the delay in the takeover one was sent to all Metrolinx staff telling them that the delay was 9 months. OnXpress will take over September 1st, 2025.

Good grief - but what happens in the meantime? I'd think they have to be hiring a fair amount of staff for the next 9 months of operation - just to account for attrition.

I thought we'd heard that training had stopped?

 

[smallspy]

Suprising news hasnt picked it up yet.

It's not surprising, really.

While OnXpress and the upcoming improvement of services on GO is a big deal to us here, it simply is not to the general populace.

People hear in generalities about the nice things that Metrolinx is doing, and that they may have another train or two that they can take to get to work on time. but they don't know about or understand about the nitty-gritty details that we thrive on. They don't know who the different players are (beyond Metrolinx/GO, of course), and don't realize that there were hard timelines for some of these things - only that improvements were "coming". And a lot of that is by design.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

It's not surprising, really.

While OnXpress and the upcoming improvement of services on GO is a big deal to us here, it simply is not to the general populace.

All the same, the media is hungry enough for bad news to deliver, and I do think there are headline worthy stories out there that the media doesn't realise they have. Somehow they have bought into playing soft with ML.

For that matter, it seems that municipalities such as K-W and London are also playing nice, and certainly if they were more impatient the media would be quoting their mayors and councillors as such.

- Paul

 

[rdaner]

Do we have a date for the opening of Confederation GO in Hamilton?

 

[innsertnamehere]

only "2025".

Looking at construction, I would guess somewhere in the middle of the year.

 

[Sauga89]

As a side-note (and this probably belongs more in the GO services thread), I'm modestly surprised that the 400 widening through Barrie didn't include provisions for a future rebuilding of the Newmarket subdivision between Barrie and Gravenhurst. If you're rebuilding every bridge over the highway anyway to help with cottage country traffic, I can't imagine it would cost that much extra to leave room for a track or two. Even if you didn't plan on rebuilding the subdivision for another 10 to 20 years because of the cost, it would make it a lot easier to do if you already had a right of way through Barrie when the time came (as well as allowing for a North Barrie GO station to be built in the meantime).

This has also been discussed before. I know that the Province has long range plans to upgrade Hwy 11 north of Barrie but no clue about the timelines. I believe the current expansion project ends at Hwy400/11 junction ('Willow Creek'). I suspect it is way, way into the future. I'm never convinced that, outside of the prairies, the alignments required for road and rail are all that compatible. If nothing else, you want major highways to bypass towns but train stations to be in town. Also, no one has ever explained to me how they would get rail from Barrie-Allendale out to Hwy 11. I know people have all sorts of funky ideas that look cool on paper, and I don't want to derail this ONR thread for something that, in my opinion, belongs in a fantasy thread.

I don't think that's at all fair.

Its quite straight-forward to go from Allandale along the BCRY to the 400. IF provision were made within the 400 ROW for rail, its easy lay new track and at the appropriate juncture, side jaunt to Orillia and across (or follow 11 further and make the connection upstream.

Whether or not that should be a top priority is a fair discussion; but its a perfectly viable routing option, in theory.

There are essentially only 3 other choices, (if one wishes to remake the connection); the original route, more or less, which would be problematic for Barrie's waterfront and involve removing some subsequently built homes, tunnelling, or following BCRY beyond the 400 to make a greenfield connection.

I'm replying to a discussion that came up in the Ontario Northland thread, which I think belongs better here. We were discussing use of the Northlander train to get to cottage country around Gravenhurst, and I lamented that the 400 widening project through Barrie didn't include provision for the re-building of the Newmarket subdivision, and the building of a North Barrie GO station along the 400 right-of-way through Barrie.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the Newmarket subdivision be re-built any time soon, I was only suggesting that it wouldn't necessarily have cost much to leave space for a future track if every bridge and overpass were being re-built anyway. It would make it a lot easier and cheaper to re-build the line 20 years down the road if you had a right-of-way through Barrie. It's a bit of a moot point now I suppose, since some (though not all) of the new bridges have already been completed I think.

My thought was that you could have planned (again in 15 to 20 years, not necessarily now) to have followed the BCRY west from Allandale station to the 400, and then switched to the 400 right-of-way as far as Sideroad 5/Georgian Drive, and then expropriated a route parallel to Sideroad 5 towards the community of Shanty Bay, where you could join the original Newmarket subdivision route. The property lines along Sideroad 5 conveniently run south-east, so you could probably have gotten away with expropriating just a strip from a few properties, which would be cheaper than expropriating entire properties.

East of Shanty Bay, it looks like the only structure on the old right of way is a hardware store in Orillia (Although you'd have to re-build the Atherley Narrows Swing Bridge). Most of the old subdivision is in government hands as an unpaved trail.

You could still re-build the line, it's just now you'd have to tear out several bridges you just built, which would be much more expensive.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm replying to a discussion that came up in the Ontario Northland thread, which I think belongs better here. We were discussing use of the Northlander train to get to cottage country around Gravenhurst, and I lamented that the 400 widening project through Barrie didn't include provision for the re-building of the Newmarket subdivision, and the building of a North Barrie GO station along the 400 right-of-way through Barrie.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the Newmarket subdivision be re-built any time soon, I was only suggesting that it wouldn't necessarily have cost much to leave space for a future track if every bridge and overpass were being re-built anyway. It would make it a lot easier and cheaper to re-build the line 20 years down the road if you had a right-of-way through Barrie. It's a bit of a moot point now I suppose, since some (though not all) of the new bridges have already been completed I think.

My thought was that you could have planned (again in 15 to 20 years, not necessarily now) to have followed the BCRY west from Allandale station to the 400, and then switched to the 400 right-of-way as far as Sideroad 5/Georgian Drive, and then expropriated a route parallel to Sideroad 5 towards the community of Shanty Bay, where you could join the original Newmarket subdivision route. The property lines along Sideroad 5 conveniently run south-east, so you could probably have gotten away with expropriating just a strip from a few properties, which would be cheaper than expropriating entire properties.

East of Shanty Bay, it looks like the only structure on the old right of way is a hardware store in Orillia (Although you'd have to re-build the Atherley Narrows Swing Bridge). Most of the old subdivision is in government hands as an unpaved trail.

You could still re-build the line, it's just now you'd have to tear out several bridges you just built, which would be much more expensive.

So you want to go west from GO Allendale, then turn a hard right to parallel Hwy 400. I don't know the setback and clearance standards for a 400 series highway, nor do I know how wide a corridor a railline needs, but suspect that the current widening of Hwy 400 through Barrie pretty much maxes-out the footprint. I can't imagine how much expropriation that would require just for the corridor let alone a station. To what end? If you want to capture Barrie growth, there will be some to the north but it will mostly be to the southeast (where the rail line already is) and the the southwest, which you satisfy by simply extending along the BCR to the west.

you'd have to re-build the Atherley Narrows Swing Bridge

Where are you going with this new rail line?

 

[Northern Light]

So you want to go west from GO Allendale, then turn a hard right to parallel Hwy 400. I don't know the setback and clearance standards for a 400 series highway, nor do I know how wide a corridor a railline needs, but suspect that the current widening of Hwy 400 through Barrie pretty much maxes-out the footprint. I can't imagine how much expropriation that would require just for the corridor let alone a station.

@innsertnamehere has already outlined that the current MTO work has not included rail within the footprint, and shy of removing lanes, that there isn't the room remaining.

I think the point was that room should have been found when widening/corridor planning was being undertaken.

Clearly, that opportunity has been missed.

To what end? If you want to capture Barrie growth, there will be some to the north but it will mostly be to the southeast (where the rail line already is) and the the southwest, which you satisfy by simply extending along the BCR to the west.


Where are you going with this new rail line?

I will let @Sauga89 speak for himself.........but there are a few reasons to consider reconnection to the north.

1) Network Redundancy for freight and passenger service.

2) Ontario Northland would be more economical if it serviced Barrie.

3) The connection allows for current and future growth for Orillia and provides an Orillia to Barrie connection.

4) It allows for service marketed to those Cottage/Resort/Park bound. (clearly this requires substantial 'last mile' services not yet in place, be that car rental/carshare, cycle rental/share, or some form of transit.)

The last one is somewhat more fanciful in the near term. But the first three have at least the hint of a business case to them, subject to how expensive any reconnection work is.........

But important to note here, that Sauga89 wasn't suggesting building the connection anytime soon, merely protecting for it.

 

[nfitz]

The only future Barrie option I see is a West Barrie station at Highways 27 and 90. But they need development there ... might be a good spot for TOD.

Ditto for Angus I suppose, but I don't think there's demand for that for decades.

I suppose a Midhurst station isn't impossible, if they are willing to build onto the McTier sub via Essa. And if there's ever enough density up there.

 

[lenaitch]

@innsertnamehere has already outlined that the current MTO work has not included rail within the footprint, and shy of removing lanes, that there isn't the room remaining.

I think the point was that room should have been found when widening/corridor planning was being undertaken.

Clearly, that opportunity has been missed.



I will let @Sauga89 speak for himself.........but there are a few reasons to consider reconnection to the north.

1) Network Redundancy for freight and passenger service.

2) Ontario Northland would be more economical if it serviced Barrie.

3) The connection allows for current and future growth for Orillia and provides an Orillia to Barrie connection.

4) It allows for service marketed to those Cottage/Resort/Park bound. (clearly this requires substantial 'last mile' services not yet in place, be that car rental/carshare, cycle rental/share, or some form of transit.)

The last one is somewhat more fanciful in the near term. But the first three have at least the hint of a business case to them, subject to how expensive any reconnection work is.........

But important to note here, that Sauga89 wasn't suggesting building the connection anytime soon, merely protecting for it.

I suspect the cost of expropriation to protect such a corridor would have made the project unpalatable for both the province and perhaps the city. Even exercising permit control under the Public Transportation and Highway Improvement Act would have been problematic since a lot of the property use is pre-existing and the city would be less than pleased with swathes of land that were beyond development and therefore, taxation.

Rail freight redundancy is a matter for the for-profit railways, not the public purse. As we have seen in many locations, they don't see it as an issue serious enough to spend money on.

@innsertnamehere has already outlined that the current MTO work has not included rail within the footprint, and shy of removing lanes, that there isn't the room remaining.

I think the point was that room should have been found when widening/corridor planning was being undertaken.

Clearly, that opportunity has been missed.



I will let @Sauga89 speak for himself.........but there are a few reasons to consider reconnection to the north.

1) Network Redundancy for freight and passenger service.

2) Ontario Northland would be more economical if it serviced Barrie.

3) The connection allows for current and future growth for Orillia and provides an Orillia to Barrie connection.

4) It allows for service marketed to those Cottage/Resort/Park bound. (clearly this requires substantial 'last mile' services not yet in place, be that car rental/carshare, cycle rental/share, or some form of transit.)

The last one is somewhat more fanciful in the near term. But the first three have at least the hint of a business case to them, subject to how expensive any reconnection work is.........

But important to note here, that Sauga89 wasn't suggesting building the connection anytime soon, merely protecting for it.

The only future Barrie option I see is a West Barrie station at Highways 27 and 90. But they need development there ... might be a good spot for TOD.

Ditto for Angus I suppose, but I don't think there's demand for that for decades.

I suppose a Midhurst station isn't impossible, if they are willing to build onto the McTier sub via Essa. And if there's ever enough density up there.

To the west, Barrie is pretty much built out to the boundary at CR27; although development could happen in Essa Twp or Barrie could annex. The city currently has their sights on a piece out there as well as north and northeast of the city. They are going over like lead balloons but are likely inevitable. The last time Barrie annexed a piece of Innisfil it was under the guise of employment lands, then immediately turned it into subdivisions.

As for Midhurst, the Springwater Township Secondary Growth Plan calls for a population of about 50000 by the 2040s, much of it in Midhurst, so the population will be there. As is often the case, CPKC will be the problem, but a much easier connection to the BCR at Utopia.

 

[Sauga89]

So you want to go west from GO Allendale, then turn a hard right to parallel Hwy 400. I don't know the setback and clearance standards for a 400 series highway, nor do I know how wide a corridor a railline needs, but suspect that the current widening of Hwy 400 through Barrie pretty much maxes-out the footprint. I can't imagine how much expropriation that would require just for the corridor let alone a station. To what end? If you want to capture Barrie growth, there will be some to the north but it will mostly be to the southeast (where the rail line already is) and the the southwest, which you satisfy by simply extending along the BCR to the west.


Where are you going with this new rail line?

I measured the 400 corridor on Google Maps at more than 90 metres wide in Barrie. The current six-lane highway, including shoulders and a grassy median, is only 40 metres wide. Even after expanding the highway to 10 lanes, that should leave a fair bit of room for rail...or at least it would if the bridges allowed for it.

But important to note here, that Sauga89 wasn't suggesting building the connection anytime soon, merely protecting for it.

Exactly.

Again, at this point, with half the new bridges already built, I'm more shedding tears at a missed opportunity to plan for future growth than anything else.

As for a North Barrie station site? There are a lot of options, but I like the Bayfield/400 interchange. You could have had the station in the median, or on the shoulder, with pedestrian bridges to parking lots/bus stations on either side. There's an empty lot next to a motel on the north side that looks feasible. That way, cars and buses coming south on the 400 could have driven right into the station parking lot off the highway, instead of fighting through traffic to get to Allandale. You'd also be on the road to Midhurst and the north Barrie suburbs.

To @Northern Light 's list of benefits, I'd add serving the industrial park in Orillia for freight, and providing a stop at Casino Rama (which has a hotel and a 5,000 seat arena for events, but isn't very accessible). There are nine round trips daily to Allandale station now. If the Newmarket subdivision had never been dismantled, I figure it would probably have at least a couple round trips a day by now, similar to Niagara Falls service. In 20 years, there might be demand for a fair bit more, and it might well be worth re-building, if it could be done relatively cheaply. I think the government may have missed an opportunity to plan ahead by not planning for future rail along the 400.

 

[nfitz]

To the west, Barrie is pretty much built out to the boundary at CR27; although development could happen in Essa Twp or Barrie could annex. The city currently has their sights on a piece out there as well as north and northeast of the city. They are going over like lead balloons but are likely inevitable. The last time Barrie annexed a piece of Innisfil it was under the guise of employment lands, then immediately turned it into subdivisions.

As for Midhurst, the Springwater Township Secondary Growth Plan calls for a population of about 50000 by the 2040s, much of it in Midhurst, so the population will be there. As is often the case, CPKC will be the problem, but a much easier connection to the BCR at Utopia.

50,000! Well that might be a reason to extend.

There seems to be a lot of aggregate and industrial in the 90/27 area that is ripe for redevelopment. I thought there were even development applications underway or pending along Dunlop and Ardagh Roads near there.

Ah yes, we even have pages and forums for them here!

189 Summerset Drive


224 Ardagh Road


286 Ardagh Road


642 Dunlop West

 

[lenaitch]

50,000! Well that might be a reason to extend.

There seems to be a lot of aggregate and industrial in the 90/27 area that is ripe for redevelopment. I thought there were even development applications underway or pending along Dunlop and Ardagh Roads near there.

Ah yes, we even have pages and forums for them here!

189 Summerset Drive
View attachment 617519

224 Ardagh Road
View attachment 617521

286 Ardagh Road
View attachment 617526

642 Dunlop West
View attachment 617527

Not a lot of aggregate although I see Google Earth shows a LaFarge yard - it's not a quarry. Why does industrial land need to be redeveloped so long as it is viable? Not everything needs to a bedroom.

A lot of the open space you see in the CR90-27-Ardaugh Rd. area is the Bear Creek wetlands. I don't know its land use status but it is quite wet. People that back onto it complain of wet backyards. If it's not protected, it should be.

 

[nfitz]

Not a lot of aggregate although I see Google Earth shows a LaFarge yard - it's not a quarry.

Yeah, there's that Lafarge site - it's an aggregate depot these days, but I've always assumed it was a sand & gravel pit.

On the north side of the road it looks like there's two old pits as well (though I suppose that's technically not Barrie), while just to the east on the south side is very low-quality industrial and I'd guess old pits too.

Larfage is now using the Sass pit on George Johnston Road, between Dunlop and Sunnidale, which is adjacent to the John Eek Springwater pit. Again outside of Barrie, but presumably part of the same deposits that have already been exhausted near 27 and 90. And the pits around Essa. But oddly, some are licensed as quarries, at least according to the database. I don't know if this is just something they aren't taking advantage of, or if there's a shallow surficial unit of something they are after (I'd have to check the geology - I've only dealt with the overburden in that area).

The major quarries are on the east side of Lake Simcoe. There's a lot of them.