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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

gweed123 said:
Agreed completely. I support this move, though from a personal standpoint I don't like the idea of trains surrounding weekend Jays games being more packed than they already are. That's just me being selfish though.
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Considering the outlook for the team this season you probably won't have to worry too much about that anyways.
 
I got the impression that the abuse of the kiddies presto card was on the subway....since you have to tap to get into the subway I don't sense they are fare checking there as much as they are on streetcars (since the gates are seen as an obstacle to fare evasion) but if the wrong type of card is being tapped the gates can't really do their job......on the streetcars, an adult tapping a kid's card has no less chance of being caught than someone not tapping anything.....when the fare checkers arrive you are still on there without paying.

So is the answer to flood the subway with fare checkers?
 
TOareaFan said:
I got the impression that the abuse of the kiddies presto card was on the subway....since you have to tap to get into the subway I don't sense they are fare checking there as much as they are on streetcars (since the gates are seen as an obstacle to fare evasion) but if the wrong type of card is being tapped the gates can't really do their job......on the streetcars, an adult tapping a kid's card has no less chance of being caught than someone not tapping anything.....when the fare checkers arrive you are still on there without paying.

So is the answer to flood the subway with fare checkers?
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Maybe some covert sting operations at random fare gates, checking for patrons using fraudulent cards and gate jumpers, then publicizing the results after a two week period and follow up at random times and places after. But not checking customers once they're on the subway.
 
TOareaFan said:
So is the answer to flood the subway with fare checkers?
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In the short-term, most likely. ~8 staff working as a group at platform level would likely do it; target 1 station for 15 minutes then hop on a train to another nearby station.

Longer term, I'd like to see the TTC add CCTV coverage of all gates with feeds synchronized to taps. Child taps should be reviewed randomly and fraudulent cards disabled; they're still paying $6 for the card and may have a small cash balance.

Second, they need to separate inbound/outbound flows (so people entering an exit are very obvious), and possibly make exit taps a requirement.
 
TOareaFan said:
I got the impression that the abuse of the kiddies presto card was on the subway....since you have to tap to get into the subway I don't sense they are fare checking there as much as they are on streetcars (since the gates are seen as an obstacle to fare evasion) but if the wrong type of card is being tapped the gates can't really do their job......on the streetcars, an adult tapping a kid's card has no less chance of being caught than someone not tapping anything.....when the fare checkers arrive you are still on there without paying.

So is the answer to flood the subway with fare checkers?
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I don't know how fare checkers can catch fare evaders already on the subway. They can just say they paid cash, which there is no way to check - and they can just print POP on any station.
 
hw621 said:
I don't know how fare checkers can catch fare evaders already on the subway. They can just say they paid cash, which there is no way to check - and they can just print POP on any station.
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Basically the same way high volume speed traps can give speeding tickets. You have an observer or 2 watching the gates, CCTV might be sufficient, with a real-time feed of taps and notify officers further in the station with a description of the person and which way they went (eastbound escalator for example).

The observers can:
  1. Watch for the umbrella/bag/etc gate opening trick, and
  2. Watch for special fare (child) taps where the person may not fit that category
  3. Watch for people passing through crash gates or fare booth without paying
Station CCTV would typically be sufficient evidence for the courts to know the person receiving the ticket was also the one committing fare fraud 1 minute earlier.

Perhaps add 1 plain clothes near the entrance for those who try to run from platform level officers.
 
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rbt said:
Basically the same way high volume speed traps can give speeding tickets. You have an observer or 2 watching the gates, CCTV might be sufficient, with a real-time feed of taps and notify officers further in the station with a description of the person and which way they went (eastbound escalator for example).

The observers can:
  1. Watch for the umbrella/bag/etc gate opening trick, and
  2. Watch for special fare (child) taps where the person may not fit that category
  3. Watch for people passing through crash gates or fare booth without paying
Station CCTV would typically be sufficient evidence for the courts to know the person receiving the ticket was also the one committing fare fraud 1 minute earlier.

Perhaps add 1 plain clothes near the entrance for those who try to run from platform level officers.
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Or just make the cards different colours for different user types and have someone standing there making sure that the colour of card tapped matches the type of person using it? The complicated and labour-intensive 'sting operations' being proposed here would be redundant if it was easier to spot who was using what type of card without needing to digitally check what type of card was being tapped.
 
gweed123 said:
Or just make the cards different colours for different user types and have someone standing there making sure that the colour of card tapped matches the type of person using it? The complicated and labour-intensive 'sting operations' being proposed here would be redundant if it was easier to spot who was using what type of card without needing to digitally check what type of card was being tapped.
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I think it's far too late to switch colours. Forcing Children in Ottawa to exchange cards for a problem in Toronto isn't going to go over well. Also, someone smart enough to carry a real card in addition to their fraud card would use the valid one when gates are being observed; unmanned entrances would make that type of observation really obvious.

Not to mention you can wrap a colourful child card in a printout of an adult card which would be sufficient to obscure a quick tap action.

Catching semi-clever fraudsters will require not having anyone official looking hovering directly around the gates, and reading what the gate registers as a fare paid.
 
rbt said:
I think it's far too late to switch colours. Forcing Children in Ottawa to exchange cards for a problem in Toronto isn't going to go over well. Also, someone smart enough to carry a real card in addition to their fraud card would use the valid one when gates are being observed; unmanned entrances would make that type of observation really obvious.

Not to mention you can wrap a colourful child card in a printout of an adult card which would be sufficient to obscure a quick tap action.

Catching semi-clever fraudsters will require not having anyone official looking hovering directly around the gates, and reading what the gate registers as a fare paid.
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Someone is always going to find a way to game the system, but it should be a bit harder than the way it currently is. As for changing colours, that doesn't need to happen all at once. Presto only recently switched to the black card from the green card. I don't think we should force people to change, but if you offer them a free 'updated' card, or only give them the options of new cards when they come to renew their pass type or replace a lost card, it may speed up adoption.
 
rbt said:
Not to mention you can wrap a colourful child card in a printout of an adult card which would be sufficient to obscure a quick tap action.
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I am neither clever or a fraudster but no one would catch me......my presto card stays in my wallet and I tap my wallet.....the only time I have to take my card out (for some reason) is when being fare checked on UP....other than that, I am just tapping my wallet....who would/could know what colour that card is?
 
gweed123 said:
Or just make the cards different colours for different user types and have someone standing there making sure that the colour of card tapped matches the type of person using it? The complicated and labour-intensive 'sting operations' being proposed here would be redundant if it was easier to spot who was using what type of card without needing to digitally check what type of card was being tapped.
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Totally defeat the purpose of efficiency and labor cost saving of implementation of Presto
 
As an observation: Most of the kids I see on the TTC streetcars/buses don't have Presto Cards. Or if they do, they don't tap or show them. I'm sure a minority must, but the vast majority just flock on and off. Unchallenged, some hop on for a block, hop off again, sometimes in groups (I'm being diplomatic).

But I don't see this on subways where they have to pass fare gates. I leave it to others to proffer why...Human nature, no matter the age, is that if something is given away 'free', it's treated that way. Unvalued.
 
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