GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[smallspy]

I wonder if there's the possibility of re-opening the 4th track (or is it the 1st track, the northernmost one) at Burlington GO to use as a pocket track. It may involve lengthening the northern platform eastward as the track has basically been sliced by the path leading from the west end of the platform of the parking garage, but I think it would be doable.

This would potentially lead to a mid-day service pattern where every 2nd train short turns at Burlington, while every other train runs to West Harbour.

It would be more involved than that, I fear. The platform is the easy part in the process - the harder part would be grading and extending that northern-most track back east to the interlocking at Burlington East. Something would also need to be done about the bridge at Guelph Line, as while it is built for 4 tracks, the 3 currently located there are all aligned on the north side of it. The tracks could be shifted south, but that would also require doing the same to the interlocking, which is a much, much bigger and more difficult proposition. Certainly not insurmountable, but certainly not something that can be done overnight.

But certainly something that could/would be worthwhile doing for a more longer-term plan, especially if CN continues to be a pain with scheduling between Burlington and Aldershot Stations.

Is this an hourly express service?

No. All-stops to Oakville. If it is anything like the schedule drawn up for April, trains will arrive westbound at Oakville at 39, and leave eastbound at 13.

I would rather vast improvements on the non lakeshore line then 15 minutes on lakeshore lines.

It would be nice. Unfortunately, none of the other lines other than Kitchener is currently capable of having any service improvements beyond additional peak-direction rush-hour service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[joet00]

Yes, there are. And it sounds like CN may have signed off on some of them.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Yes, this is super exciting news. Can't wait to see specifics of what's coming.

My wish list:

* Increased service on the Barrie line incl. north of Aurora. Bradford has 1.5 platforms, great for a point of turn-around.

* Weekend and increased service on the Stouffville line.

* Increased service on the Richmond Hill line. There's still plenty of parking at Gormley, long after Aurora is full up.

So no GO-to-GO credit, but GO-to-TTC and TTC-to-GO credits are applied. That option saves a few bucks off the UP Express routing and is similar timewise (according to Triplinx).

Of course, what Presto actually deducts can be a different story. I’ll advise next time I take this trip, likely later next week.

I took this trip (Aurora-to-Pearson) and then back again a few days later. Here's what was charged:

GO trip #1: Regular GO fare.
Transfer to TTC: $1.50 co-fare discount applied.
GO trip #2: Regular GO fare. (No GO transfer credit; no TTC-to-GO credit, contrary to what was suggested by Triplinx.)

I contacted GO Customer Service. After several days of email back-and-forth, they're confirming the charges are correct...and Triplinx is wrong. At least they credited me as a good will gesture.

Will pay the TTC fare separately next time to see what happens.

 

[gweed123]

It would be more involved than that, I fear. The platform is the easy part in the process - the harder part would be grading and extending that northern-most track back east to the interlocking at Burlington East. Something would also need to be done about the bridge at Guelph Line, as while it is built for 4 tracks, the 3 currently located there are all aligned on the north side of it. The tracks could be shifted south, but that would also require doing the same to the interlocking, which is a much, much bigger and more difficult proposition. Certainly not insurmountable, but certainly not something that can be done overnight.

But certainly something that could/would be worthwhile doing for a more longer-term plan, especially if CN continues to be a pain with scheduling between Burlington and Aldershot Stations.

That's unfortunate. And thank you for the detailed reply. I'll admit I'm far from an expert in track configuration, I was just hoping that given that the platform was already there, that the track would could have been relatively easy.

There is no way of knowing for certain, but I would think that if the government proceeded with the Wynne plan to offer $3 short-haul fares, then beefed up service will likely attract a material number of new riders.

Infill stations will also be crucial.

It should be added here, that new riders don't pop up overnight, for the most part, as people have habits, established modes of travel and it takes time for changes in service level to induce demand. Though as the King Street improvements showed, latent demand may existing and show up quickly, but I suspect that would be more applicable to rush-hour service on GO when trains are full or close to full.

I may be in the minority here, but personally I would rather have 30 min express service from Oakville than 15 min service on the entire line. I can plan around a 30 min schedule to reduce wait time, but I can't get the extra 10-15 mins back from the train stopping at every stop along the way.

Run 30 min service from Aldershot (or West Harbour) making all stops to Oakville, and then running express to Union, and then have a second train running every 30 mins (or maybe even every 20 if the route cycle times line up well) from Oakville to Union making all station stops, including some infill stations. If you can time it to have the inbound local train depart Oakville a few minutes after the express train does, the transfer for people from west of Oakville who aren't Union-bound would be nearly seamless.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

While I agree this should be the case ideally, I imagine that many improvements are being held until certain construction projects are complete.

There is both an issue of whether capacity supports and improvement, but also the impact on construction of more frequent train service.

On a personal level, I would be most enthused for off-peak GO service into Hamilton; but I very much support seeing weekend service for Brampton and Stouffville.

I personally would love hourly off peak express service to Hamilton.. bonus of serving Oakville-Burlington on a reduced travel time schedule too.

^When I ride LSE/LSW at midday and in the evening, I am impressed at just how full the trains are. I would think that 15 minute service would draw more people still. So I’m happy to see that happen.... but ..... the first mile/ last mile options have to be improved. There isn’t a parking spot left mid-day from Oshawa to Oakville.
As noted, the service in other routes is constrained by the lack of track. Construction will solve that - it’s important that these projects are kept moving and that the long-lead-time items especially are identified and expedited. And again, first/last mile matters.

- Paul

But why haven't these projects been tendered yet? I mean the EAs and preliminary are work mostly done.

It would be more involved than that, I fear. The platform is the easy part in the process - the harder part would be grading and extending that northern-most track back east to the interlocking at Burlington East. Something would also need to be done about the bridge at Guelph Line, as while it is built for 4 tracks, the 3 currently located there are all aligned on the north side of it. The tracks could be shifted south, but that would also require doing the same to the interlocking, which is a much, much bigger and more difficult proposition. Certainly not insurmountable, but certainly not something that can be done overnight.

But certainly something that could/would be worthwhile doing for a more longer-term plan, especially if CN continues to be a pain with scheduling between Burlington and Aldershot Stations.



No. All-stops to Oakville. If it is anything like the schedule drawn up for April, trains will arrive westbound at Oakville at 39, and leave eastbound at 13.



It would be nice. Unfortunately, none of the other lines other than Kitchener is currently capable of having any service improvements beyond additional peak-direction rush-hour service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

IMO they could turn the Stouffville trains around at Mount Joy.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Infill stations will also be crucial.

Let's wait until electrification commences before we add more stations -- we don't want significant slowdowns in service. We should most definitely plan track improvements under the assumption that new stations will be built though.

Why can't one or two trains travel all the way to Kitchener on the weekend, why does it have to stop at Mount Pleasant? As I understand, the freight schedule isn't vastly different than the weekdays, and a slot wouldn't be that bad. A lot of people out here would want access to downtown events.

 

[TOareaFan]

If all the new service said was "12 car trains during Peak on KW corridor" you will make people happy. Currently standing room from Brampton inbound.....boosting capacity on those trains by 20% will boost ridership.....and improve margins.

The discussion about what is better ....taking Lakeshore(s) to 15 minute frequency or adding trains/service elsewhere is an interesting one.

As some point out, it is complicated (a lot) by track/corridor readiness elsewhere. So it might fall into the norm rationalization GO has for a lot of its increased service.....Why this and not that? is often best answered with "because we can do this but we can't do that".

Will 15 minute service on LSW/E add riders....sure it will....every time you add incremental service you will add riders....the question is does the increase in service add enough riders at the margin to favour choice a over choice b. (remember when they doubled off peak service to 30 minutes from hourly....within weeks they were running stories bragging about the 25% increase in off peak ridership....but those numbers told a different tale if you thought about it carefully). One of the problems I have is that the Lakeshore(s) seem to be the only ones that get incremental service increases....when more trains get added, nothing gets cancelled. On the other lines, it seems, every time a train is added a bunch of buses get cancelled.....so you go from a bus every 20 or 30 minutes to a train every hour (or sometimes less frequent) in those cases it is not clear that you will see (immediately) any net increase in ridership because some people will fall off because they were driven to use the service by frequency as opposed to wanting trains.

I am not sure why so many buses need to be cancelled when trains are added (eg. I have often said that if Brampton got hourly trains then there should be hourly buses kept as well but with the trains and buses running half hour apart....so you would have half hourly service but half the trips would be buses and half trains).

Anyway, more trains in more places is a positive.

 

[Streety McCarface]

If all the new service said was "12 car trains during Peak on KW corridor" you will make people happy. Currently standing room from Brampton inbound.....boosting capacity on those trains by 20% will boost ridership.....and improve margins.

The discussion about what is better ....taking Lakeshore(s) to 15 minute frequency or adding trains/service elsewhere is an interesting one.

As some point out, it is complicated (a lot) by track/corridor readiness elsewhere. So it might fall into the norm rationalization GO has for a lot of its increased service.....Why this and not that? is often best answered with "because we can do this but we can't do that".

Will 15 minute service on LSW/E add riders....sure it will....every time you add incremental service you will add riders....the question is does the increase in service add enough riders at the margin to favour choice a over choice b. (remember when they doubled off peak service to 30 minutes from hourly....within weeks they were running stories bragging about the 25% increase in off peak ridership....but those numbers told a different tale if you thought about it carefully). One of the problems I have is that the Lakeshore(s) seem to be the only ones that get incremental service increases....when more trains get added, nothing gets cancelled. On the other lines, it seems, every time a train is added a bunch of buses get cancelled.....so you go from a bus every 20 or 30 minutes to a train every hour (or sometimes less frequent) in those cases it is not clear that you will see (immediately) any net increase in ridership because some people will fall off because they were driven to use the service by frequency as opposed to wanting trains.

I am not sure why so many buses need to be cancelled when trains are added (eg. I have often said that if Brampton got hourly trains then there should be hourly buses kept as well but with the trains and buses running half hour apart....so you would have half hourly service but half the trips would be buses and half trains).

Anyway, more trains in more places is a positive.

Remember, the GO transit farebox recovery ratio is the highest in North America, maybe it's time for the government to make more investments in the service now during the transition to RER.

12 car trains will be the greatest thing to happen to the kitchener line since the service was extended to Kitchener. The fact that they haven't done this for years baffles me. Every time I take a train from Kitchener to downtown, the train is so full, standing-room-only capacity is a precious commodity, with people having to run to different cars to find space. However, the 2 extra cars only add about an extra 600 passengers. At some point, we'll be back where we started and new trains will be required.

With regards to Kitchener off-peak service, I'm curious as to why Metrolinx is insistent on running 6 car trains (and for that matter, 10 car trains on Lakeshore). Why are they not shortened? Surely there is not that much demand on the lines.

 

[TOareaFan]

Remember, the GO transit farebox recovery ratio is the highest in North America, maybe it's time for the government to make more investments in the service now during the transition to RER.

12 car trains will be the greatest thing to happen to the kitchener line since the service was extended to Kitchener. The fact that they haven't done this for years baffles me. Every time I take a train from Kitchener to downtown, the train is so full, standing-room-only capacity is a precious commodity, with people having to run to different cars to find space. However, the 2 extra cars only add about an extra 600 passengers. At some point, we'll be back where we started and new trains will be required.

No need to do the math......taking a 10 car train and making it a 12 car train is a 20% increase in capacity....will that fill up....yes, eventually, but for the "now" that is the biggest need in the corridor.

As for extending the line to Kitchener being the greatest thing to happen to the line....I am sure people east of Brampton who now stand on their ride in where they used to get a seat would need to have the merits of westerly expansion explained to them.

I have use the mid day service a few times.....6 car trains seems highly appropriate....trains never feel "empty" but I have yet to see people standing in them. This may change if evening return service became a reality (inbound trains in the afternoon might have more use if there was trains bringing people back at night) but until then 6 seems about right.

 

[crs1026]

The discussion about what is better ....taking Lakeshore(s) to 15 minute frequency or adding trains/service elsewhere is an interesting one.

As some point out, it is complicated (a lot) by track/corridor readiness elsewhere. So it might fall into the norm rationalization GO has for a lot of its increased service.....Why this and not that? is often best answered with "because we can do this but we can't do that".

There was certainly no suggestion that the other lines did not deserve the same quality of service, as quickly as it can be constructed.

My gripe is when ML says "oops, we just realised that we can't upgrade service until....." because they overlooked some critical missing piece and had to rework the design, or look for more money, or have to train more crews, etc etc..... as a for instance, the last version that I saw of the KW Transit Hub proposal has only one platform track at Kitchener.....I wonder if that meshes with plans to upgrade the line for both intercity and RER. Attention to detail is not ML's planners' forte.

But yeah, any trains they can add, I'm rabidly in favour.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

There was certainly no suggestion that the other lines did not deserve the same quality of service, as quickly as it can be constructed.

No suggestion was noted nor replied to......not sure why you thought there was.

My gripe is when ML says "oops, we just realised that we can't upgrade service until....." because they overlooked some critical missing piece and had to rework the design, or look for more money, or have to train more crews, etc etc.....

You just described my entire adult life until about a year ago when I realized that despite the misplaced promises over the years, I will be retired before there is anything approaching current Lakeshore type service in my corridor....that realization stopped me from caring any more and i am much more relaxed in my observation of the whole system.

 

[robmausser]

If all the new service said was "12 car trains during Peak on KW corridor" you will make people happy. Currently standing room from Brampton inbound.....boosting capacity on those trains by 20% will boost ridership.....and improve margins.

Adding more off-peak service can have the same effect, while offering more choices; some of the people taking the on-peak service are only doing so because enough off-peak doesnt exist yet. They are literally coming into Toronto early and milling about simply because they don't have a choice.

 

[smallspy]

Pardon my ignorance but with service every 30 minutes what is the significance of this . . . i.e. Oakville already has 30 minute service?

It's a start to extending the 15 minute service to the west of Union Station. A little start, but a start nonetheless.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Adding more off-peak service can have the same effect, while offering more choices; some of the people taking the on-peak service are only doing so because enough off-peak doesnt exist yet. They are literally coming into Toronto early and milling about simply because they don't have a choice.

I have no doubt that some people adjust your travel times because of available service......but when I say adding 2 cars to a 10 car train expands capacity by 20% and you say that taking those time shifters off of the peak trains has the same effect are you really suggesting that 20% of the people on peak trains (non-lakeshore) are actually just milling about DT when they get there for their later appointments? Even if it were true (and I am not saying it is) would this "milling effect" not only impact the last of the peak trains (why would someone get on a 6 a.m. train to make their 11 a.m. appointment if there was an 8:30 train they could take?) and, by my experience, the last peak train of the morning (which on most lines gets to union after 9 ) is the one least likely to be overcrowded. e.g. the 8:02 EB out of Brampton...standing room only after Brampton (some of the people getting on at Brampton don't get q seat but most do) but the 8:25 (which should have the most time shifters in your scenario) typically has seats available all the way to Etobicoke North.

Converting all the trains to 12 cars adds 20% capacity to all peak trains......adding more off peak service takes a few people off of, perhaps, the last peak train of the morning.....so, no, not the same thing at all.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Richmond hill line will likely get a boost in service once bloomington go opens.

It is massive in comparison to gormley

 

[innsertnamehere]

In terms of parking spaces they are actually around the same - ~800 spots. It's just that Bloomington GO is putting them in a parking garage, while Gormely is surface parking.