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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

muller877 said:
There will always be bus travel on routes with or without all-day service. GO Buses serve both off-peak travel and travel not to Union Station (i.e. from Oakville to North York). So there will not be a complete depletion of the bus system on a route when the trains take over...they will fill in another need.
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Not sure I said buses would disappear, if I did that is not what I meant. But busses going to Union should disappear if all lines have full train service. Those buses can be rededicated to, as you say, routes that don't go to Union or as extenders of the rail lines into areas of lower demand....spoking out from and feeding the rail lines.


muller877 said:
The key point is that we should not have a cookie cutter solution for each line. If we do, we will have a huge operating deficit for a long time. Look at each line independently, inform the public how you are doing so and then execute on your strategy. If Metrolinx/Ontario government sets a policy that is EASY for people to understand and executes on it, everyone will understand what they are doing (they may not be happy but at least they will understand).
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Again, nowhere did I say (or mean to say) cookie cutter approach but policieis like "when demand warrants" without telling people what that means leads people like me to think about what it means and if, on one line, an average of 350 passengers an hour is what warranted expansion of half-hourly trains then surely the number for hourly is less than that and it seems like that is a number achievable on any/all of the other lines.

muller877 said:
The WORST thing for transit is to overbuild in areas where this is no demand and then there will be cutbacks which will set back transit policy for years.
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Again, what is overbuilding? Hate to harp on the half hourly service on Lakeshore (cause I actually think it is a good thing) but in announcing that increase in service level the projection was that the increase alone would lead to an increase in the annual subsidy would be $7 million. Since the average number of passengers seems to have dropped perhaps that estimate was low...I don't know but, again, if increases in subsidy are are reason to avoid overbuilding in some places...why not all?
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
http://www.transit.toronto.on.ca/gotransit/2101.shtml

It didn't start off as hourly.
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Only because not all the equipment arrived simultaneously. For a few weeks during the summer it wasn't hourly, but that page itself notes that "By September 1967, trains were running hourly, seven days a week."

It was always planned hourly from day one, it just took a few weeks to ramp things up. It's not like the other GO lines, where there was never a plan for off-peak service when they opened in the 1970s and early-1980s.
 
TOareaFan said:
Sure....but it wasn't incremental as muller877 had said ....which is what started the whole discussion.
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I was not saying weather it is incremental either way.

nfitz said:
Only because not all the equipment arrived simultaneously. For a few weeks during the summer it wasn't hourly, but that page itself notes that "By September 1967, trains were running hourly, seven days a week."

It was always planned hourly from day one, it just took a few weeks to ramp things up. It's not like the other GO lines, where there was never a plan for off-peak service when they opened in the 1970s and early-1980s.
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fair enough.
 
As a resident near the Kitchener Line, I would be ecstatic with hourly service in both directions. From Brampton to go into Toronto, no matter what the frequency of vehicles, be it trains or buses or swan boats, that trip has to be planned. If I have to be somewhere in TO at 7pm for example, the ACC for a Raptor game, I know I have to be at Bramalea Go around 5-5:30. If train/bus options are 5 or 6, I can make a reasonable choice (kinda early or barely on time/maybe a tad late) and act accordingly without having to have 15 minute frequencies available. New Jersey transit runs hourly throughout the day (more during the rush of course) and I would love Go Trains on all lines (not named Lakeshore) 2 way hourly. Express rail is nice, but I don't think it's totally necessary right now.
 
I think you are over estimating the usefulness of hourly frequencies. Really, they aren't that great. You need to plan out your day around the train schedule. Leave the game a little early to catch the train, or wait 45 minutes for the next one. Miss the train? whelp, next one is in an hour, sorry bud. Trust me, having to hang around for 45 minutes before the thing you are going to is never fun for anyone and is a huge incentive to take the car. Even the jump to 30 minute service on the Lakeshore line was a huge improvement.. missing a train is no longer the end of the world and your life will rely on the train schedule a whole lot less. 15 minute service would be even better, as it would be a show up and go service where the train schedule doesn't really even matter.

hourly frequencies may be fine for people using the line for leisure such as going to see a game, but for people who have to make the trek downtown for "real" reasons, often, hourly service is almost useless but 15 minute service is a godsend. 15 minute service would be at the point where it would likely be faster than driving no matter what time you leave your house, provided you live semi close to a station.
 
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What reasons do you consider "real"? I can agree on more service obviously being better than less. But here's the question then. Do we need 1600-2000 seats every 15 minutes during the day? Do we just run that kind of service anyways? Or do we go to smaller trains? What then happens during rush hour when even at 10-15 minute frequencies, the big trains would be more likely needed? During the day, how many trips are really that time sensitive? Btw, I work an odd schedule so my travel pattern varies through any and all times of day. I do also travel on the leisurely at times.
Right now from Brampton, there are 2 buses to Union every hour during the afternoon/evening with a couple of half-hourly runs mixed in during the pm rush. These runs can reach the 40-50 passenger load at times. So even with a 100% increase with trains introduced from pent up demand etc, we're talking about 200 or so people per hour. Even double that in a few years, I'll concede half hour trains but 15 minutes just seems like overkill. Again, unless we go to smaller trains.
 
introducing off peak service would see an almost instant huge increase of off peak ridership due to the "rail effect".

The plans are to introduce 6 car single level EMUs, so it would be more like a 600 person train every 15 minutes.

Peak times would likely see much higher frequencies than every 15 minutes, closer to 5 minutes more likely depending on the line.

"real" trips are ones to work, school, meetings, etc. where you have to be there by a specific time and would rather avoid waiting around for 45 minutes every day. Leisure trips tend to be much more relaxed, and time isn't as much as an issue.
 
cbrown2009 said:
What reasons do you consider "real"? I can agree on more service obviously being better than less. But here's the question then. Do we need 1600-2000 seats every 15 minutes during the day? Do we just run that kind of service anyways? Or do we go to smaller trains? What then happens during rush hour when even at 10-15 minute frequencies, the big trains would be more likely needed? During the day, how many trips are really that time sensitive? Btw, I work an odd schedule so my travel pattern varies through any and all times of day. I do also travel on the leisurely at times.
Right now from Brampton, there are 2 buses to Union every hour during the afternoon/evening with a couple of half-hourly runs mixed in during the pm rush. These runs can reach the 40-50 passenger load at times. So even with a 100% increase with trains introduced from pent up demand etc, we're talking about 200 or so people per hour. Even double that in a few years, I'll concede half hour trains but 15 minutes just seems like overkill. Again, unless we go to smaller trains.
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That was the kind of thing I was talking about above...if you, a regular rider, are already observing 80 -100 bus passengers per hour from Brampton to Union....and there are other buses serving other stations....how far from the 350 passengers per hour that was on the Lakeshore pre-30 minute service is the KW line already? From what I hear the buses on the other lines are seeing similar type loads.

Sure, the more the trains the better the service (on an individual rider basis) but, as you point out, there has to be a nod to fiscal prudence if the service levels are to be maintained. I have never experienced the feel that hourly service would be that inconvenient....on average it is a 30 minute wait. Not ideal but not the end of the world. When I have a wait there always seems to be something to do....grab a coffee...a beer, a bite to eat...wander around for a while...whatever.

It should be noted, though, that the RER that Wynne/Murray are talking about does involve a move to 15 minute service on all lines using 3 - 6 car EMUs
 
not really anything mentioned about that, I'm guessing largely retirement. Could probably sell some units to other North American transit agencies, but most of the older coaches and locomotives would be scrapped.
 
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