GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[drum118]

Since the line upgrades are happening prior to any new revenue tools....the question I ask (and I am not sure why I am having a hard time making it clearl what I am asking) is why this all day service is reliant on the revenue tools....the line will be, at least, double tracked all the way to Mt Pleasant...the population is there....the density is there.....so why not the service.

You need funds to put more service on the lines as well maintain the current service. That funding is part of the revenue tools.

Capital cost and operation cost are 2 different things with Metrolinx/GO Transit only seeing capital cost with their blinders on.

How can GO put service out there if they don't have the manpower in the first place??? Engineers don't fall off trees like bus drivers.

Engineers are not moving over from CN & CP as they near their retirement time as GO was hoping for, considering they still have year of service in them.

The next big batch of engineers to be train will be for the UP line, since its about 18 months away from starting up. Doesn't leave much for new services on other lines.

You can cry all you want for more service, but without crews and funding, not going to happen like you want it.

Once the real numbers are factor in for capital cost, replacement cost, operation cost, supporting local transit, that $50B is only a drop in the bucket as to what the final cost will be. Metrolinx first proposed $90B for the Big Move and was told to do it for $50B that is currently being used.

 

[nfitz]

The Kitchener Line is a perfect candidate for all day every day service, since it has trip generators at many different stations, and it should extend the entire length of the line since Kitchener-Waterloo is being its second largest trip generator

With 12-car double-decker trains? I don't see this makes sense west of Brampton.

 

[drum118]

With 12-car double-decker trains? I don't see this makes sense west of Brampton.

That is an example why GO needs 5 cars EMU sets so one of the 2/3 set can be cut off at X point. They do this in Europe to the point that a 3 set train become 3 separate trains at point X. On the inbound run they connect at point X to be come 1 set with the 2 extra engineers going home and wait for their next service hours or are on standby for the next split.

 

[Platform 27]

The Kitchener Line is a perfect candidate for all day every day service, since it has trip generators at many different stations, and it should extend the entire length of the line since Kitchener-Waterloo is being its second largest trip generator.

Kitchener-Waterloo might be the second-largest urban area on the line, but it's hardly the second-largest trip generator. It's more than 100 km away and only barely in the GTA's orbit in terms of economic and workforce linkages.

While there's certainly a non-zero number of potential reverse commuters, we're talking hundreds per day, not the thousands or tens of thousands that would be needed to vault it past most other GO lines in the queue for double-tracking. Until such time as the 401 clogs completely or hundreds of millions of dollars of investments materialize to shave 30+ minutes off the train travel time, buses will be able to offer a faster, more convenient connection, and be well able to handle the volumes.

 

[Platform 27]

How can GO put service out there if they don't have the manpower in the first place??? Engineers don't fall off trees like bus drivers.

Engineers are not moving over from CN & CP as they near their retirement time as GO was hoping for, considering they still have year of service in them.

The next big batch of engineers to be train will be for the UP line, since its about 18 months away from starting up. Doesn't leave much for new services on other lines.

If only we had someone on the board with first-hand knowledge on this subject matter...

Some new information has recently come to light which some new should please everyone. They now have a schedule in place to train an addition 60 engineers before the start of the UPE service in 2015. They seem to finally be on the verge of aggressively training the work force, around 30 people training at the same time, thanks to all the recent and continuing hiring of CSA's and by having large numbers of CSA's training to be conductors. This means that it looks like there won't be a shortage of engineers for new service even after the UPE comes online. It'll certainly be interesting to see how they use that extra manpower as that would make for 20+ additional crews than necessary to run Lakeshore 1/2 service levels plus the UPE. So in the least as long as they follow the plan they have in place, crew shortages wont be a viable excuse at that time.

 

[reaperexpress]

Kitchener-Waterloo might be the second-largest urban area on the line, but it's hardly the second-largest trip generator. It's more than 100 km away and only barely in the GTA's orbit in terms of economic and workforce linkages.

While there's certainly a non-zero number of potential reverse commuters, we're talking hundreds per day, not the thousands or tens of thousands that would be needed to vault it past most other GO lines in the queue for double-tracking. Until such time as the 401 clogs completely or hundreds of millions of dollars of investments materialize to shave 30+ minutes off the train travel time, buses will be able to offer a faster, more convenient connection, and be well able to handle the volumes.

I'm not saying that there is a huge demand from people going from Union to Kitchener or vice versa, I'm saying there's demand for commutes to Kitchener from Guelph, Georgetown and Brampton in addition Toronto. In other words, most people getting on the train in Kitchener would be getting off before Union (Guelph being the most common destination).

And at this point in the discussion, it simply comes down to employment numbers. How many people work in KW but live in Guelph, Acton, Georgetown, Brampton or Toronto. My guess is quite a lot. The fact that the Province wants to widen the 401 from 6 lanes to 10 between the GTA and Kitchener and build a 4 lane freeway from Kitchener to Guelph suggests that there is a need for increased capacity in the corridor.

Buses are not a very practical long term alternative to upgraded rail, since they get stuck in traffic (the 401 already does clog completely). The KW GO buses already get stuck often in traffic jams on the 401, and traffic is only going to get worse as the cities grow and there is insufficient investment in rail.

Double tracking is needed because of the direction of the demand, not the absolute quantity of it. Operating single-tracked bidirectional service has extremely low capacity whereas operating a single track in a single direction (as is done on most GO lines currently) has quite a high capacity. That is why double tracking is warranted more on the Kitchener Line than, say, the Richmond Hill line which almost exclusively has has peak direction demand.

Investing hundreds of millions of dollars to increase line capacity and shave 30+ minutes off the travel time is exactly what I'm suggesting. Yes, of course buses are a very important in the meantime. Also note that the Georgetown South project will shave up to 10 minutes once it's completed. Yes, building a proper regional rail line would cost over a billion dollars, but does the equivalent increase in road capacity.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm pretty sure Milton's ridership is higher then Georgetown.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am. And I'm not alone, but I'd have to go look through threads to find usernames.

The Kitchener Line is a perfect candidate for all day every day service, since it has trip generators at many different stations, and it should extend the entire length of the line since Kitchener-Waterloo is being its second largest trip generator

In contrast, most other GO lines serve few destinations other than Downtown Toronto.

The Kitchener Line would make a great Regional Rail (not commuter rail) line, serving the downtowns of Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph and Brampton in addition to serving Downtown Toronto. Guelph recently opened its new transit hub at Guelph Central GO station, and Waterloo Region is starting work on its new transit hub as well, so the catchment area for those stations will be very large. Sure there isn't as much demand for commutes from KW to Toronto as from Brampton, but there is a lot of demand from KW to Guelph, as well as between other stops along the line.

The Kitchener Line would have much better off-peak ridership than many other lines since its outlying stations have more than houses and parking lots.

That's 2 hours back and forth. How do you match hourly service to that?


Mt Pleasant or Georgetown to Union by 2023 at the latest. I stand by what I said before.

 

[smallspy]

That is an example why GO needs 5 cars EMU sets so one of the 2/3 set can be cut off at X point. They do this in Europe to the point that a 3 set train become 3 separate trains at point X. On the inbound run they connect at point X to be come 1 set with the 2 extra engineers going home and wait for their next service hours or are on standby for the next split.

This isn't Europe.

Start by getting the Feds to change the regulations, and then maybe we can begin to consider EMUs and running shorter trains off-peak.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[diminutive]

This isn't Europe.

Start by getting the Feds to change the regulations, and then maybe we can begin to consider EMUs and running shorter trains off-peak.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

How hard could it possibly be to change the relevant regulations? There wouldn't (shouldn't) be any major constituency opposed to changing regulation. Most people simply wouldn't have any idea that these regulations exist in the first place and the impact they have.

If GO or the TTC or the Province of Ontario dedicated maybe 10-20m dollars to a lobbying campaign to raise the issue, why on earth would the Feds not change? Who would oppose it? Freight operators? I can't see why...

GO/Ontario is planning on shelling out billions for various improvements. Spending a few million to converge with Euro regulations could yield savings on that alone.

 

[TOareaFan]

Kitchener-Waterloo might be the second-largest urban area on the line,

3rd I believe.

 

[dowlingm]

This isn't Europe.

Start by getting the Feds to change the regulations, and then maybe we can begin to consider EMUs and running shorter trains off-peak.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

But it's so much EASIER to simply photocopy FRA regulations

The thing about splitting trains is where the crews for the split services are based, or whether you have to deadhead them with the train to keep the number of depots lower but then this eats into their available operating hours. For Kitchener line the role of VIA also needs to be taken into account especially since they are supposed to be paying for part of the signalling upgrade.

diminutive - as long as passenger trains run in mixed traffic with freight over tracks the freight operator owns or controls then changing regs solely to benefit passenger is likely to be a tricky business. If 25kV electrification is put in the mix beyond the GO Georgetown/CN York junction then obstructionism of the sort AMT encountered in Montreal could also surface.

 

[reaperexpress]

3rd I believe.

Yes, Brampton is larger than Kitchener/Waterloo, but I was referring to the employment easily accessible from the train station. Once the new Kitchener transit hub is built, a very large proportion of the city's employment will be accessible from the train station via LRT or direct bus.

 

[smallspy]

How hard could it possibly be to change the relevant regulations? There wouldn't (shouldn't) be any major constituency opposed to changing regulation. Most people simply wouldn't have any idea that these regulations exist in the first place and the impact they have.

Well, in this case you need to start with overcoming over well 100 years of regulatory and industry inertia. Sad as it is, but "that just isn't done" is still a relevant answer for them.

Then once you've accomplished that, you need to get the other railroads on side with the changes. And probably neighbouring land owners as well. As whatever changes you make will effect all of them as well.

If GO or the TTC or the Province of Ontario dedicated maybe 10-20m dollars to a lobbying campaign to raise the issue, why on earth would the Feds not change? Who would oppose it? Freight operators? I can't see why...

First off, you are assuming that either of those two operating entities is in a position to put aside that kind of money for a lobbying effort that will take years.

As for why they would oppose it, simple - the freight railroads. You change the rules, and instantly it affects them, and thus they get their backs up. There has been a LOT of push-back on the whole PTC issue in the U.S., despite it being a good idea in the long run.

GO/Ontario is planning on shelling out billions for various improvements. Spending a few million to converge with Euro regulations could yield savings on that alone.

Not necessarily. The Euro regulations have been built over 175 years of operation in Europe. They are not designed to take into account things like 14,000 ton, 15,000 foot long potash trains running at 55mph up and down 2% grades, interacting with 100mph passenger trains - the North American regulations are.

For instance, ERTMS in its current guise is not compatible with North American infrastructure. It needs some very serious physical changes before it could be used here.

I'm not saying that North American regulations are perfect - there is room for a LOT of improvement, and PTC is but one very positive step in that direction - but to say things like "we should be doing things like they do in Europe" oversimplifies that argument to the point of uselessness.

But it's so much EASIER to simply photocopy FRA regulations

Don't forget to photocopy the EPA regs while you're at it...

Although in fairness, one place where TC has done far better than the FRA is in case-by-case exemptions to the rules - the O-Train, the Renaissance cars, QNS&L, to name but three.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, Brampton is larger than Kitchener/Waterloo, but I was referring to the employment easily accessible from the train station. Once the new Kitchener transit hub is built, a very large proportion of the city's employment will be accessible from the train station via LRT or direct bus.

Well, I was not responding to you but if you want to compare Brampton in KW and suggest that KW has plans to link its city with its new transit hub is built then I think you have to look, fairly, at how Brampton has built its Zum system. All three existing lines connect with GO stations and the 4th (Bovaird) will also....in fact there is a very good chance it will link with 2 separate GO trains.

I am not that familiar with KW's plans for, either, its transit hub or its LRT but your post suggest that they are doing something that other cities (Brampton seems to be the specific example) are not.