GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[mpd618]

- The line doesn't have strong transit connections, so the demand will likely be predominantly park-and-ride. But outside of rush hour, park-and-ride isn't so attractive since you could drive to your destination faster and at a lower cost.

Barrie is a long drive to Toronto, and at the end of that drive, you have the cost and hassle of parking and traffic (even on weekends). I think plenty of people would rather do park-and-ride.

When the Georgetown Line was extended to Kitchener, there was similar media coverage and public excitement, but almost everyone was disappointed about the service itself because it's slow, infrequent and impractical. In the end, people tended to just dismiss the service, continuing to take the bus or car.

People were mostly disappointed because of how limited the service is qualitatively - it doesn't run on weekends, and it doesn't run in the reverse direction. Though the length of the trip is a factor too. Based on survey data I collected before GO began service, there is more demand for weekend service from Kitchener to Toronto than there is for weekday commuting.

 

[reaperexpress]

Barrie is a long drive to Toronto, and at the end of that drive, you have the cost and hassle of parking and traffic (even on weekends). I think plenty of people would rather do park-and-ride.

That's true, I guess time will tell what people prefer.

People were mostly disappointed because of how limited the service is qualitatively - it doesn't run on weekends, and it doesn't run in the reverse direction. Though the length of the trip is a factor too. Based on survey data I collected before GO began service, there is more demand for weekend service from Kitchener to Toronto than there is for weekday commuting.

Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying. I travel frequently between Waterloo and Toronto, and it's completely useless to me, since it's always either going the opposite direction or not running at all. As a railfan, I wanted to try the new service, but in order to do so I had to go back to Waterloo 2 days earlier than I would have otherwise. It was also frustrating how the train slowed to a crawl past Georgetown.

There's a huge demand for service from the Universities of Guelph, Waterloo and Laurier to Toronto on Fridays, returning on Sundays. I would think that if they ran a train or two to serve that demand, the service would be well used (maybe even profitable). I wonder why GO doesn't run these trains, there must be some reason.

 

[rbt]

There's a huge demand for service from the Universities of Guelph, Waterloo and Laurier to Toronto on Fridays, returning on Sundays. I would think that if they ran a train or two to serve that demand, the service would be well used (maybe even profitable). I wonder why GO doesn't run these trains, there must be some reason.

Georgetown construction takes precidence at the moment and the weekends are important because it has large blocks of time with minimal interruptions (they don't need to get out of the way of a train).

Unless something significant happens economically (major recession causing drop in ridership), GO service should improve significantly between 2015 and 2017 in that corridor.

Unfortunately, to get construction completed by 2015, new service will need to wait.



Reminds me a bit of London actually. They desperately need new service but the process of fixing track, fixing tunnel, and replacing signals has actually temporarily (for the next decade) reduced service and capacity.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think that, at least for weekends, but even for weeknights, GO should adopt a "Game Day/Night Train" for at least some of their lines. 1 inbound (on weekends), and 1 outbound (every game night) train that is timed specifically to work with the start and end of whatever event is taking place. ACC events aren't as crucial, because it will be at most 20,000 people in attendance. But especially weekend games, the Jays have been pulling in mid 30,000s lately (the game 2 Sundays ago vs the Mets was 43,000).

The Jays have exceeded 35k exactly twice this year....the home opener and that Mets game 2 weeks ago which took everyone by surprise.

Other than those two games they have exceeded 30k three other times (april 28 v Seattle, May 17 v Yankees and May 19 v the Mets). Anectdotal evidence suggests that a good number of the people at the 3 high attendance games of late (the Yankee game and the two Met games) were New Yorkers visiting the city for the weekend ball games (great for the city and the Jays but I doubt they needed GO trains after the game).

Since that 40k met game the Jays have only had two home games. Both against the first place Orioles and they have averaged 16,964 for those games.

Over the season so far (24 of 81 home games in) the Jays are averaging a little under 25k per game.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The Jays have exceeded 35k exactly twice this year....the home opener and that Mets game 2 weeks ago which took everyone by surprise.

Other than those two games they have exceeded 30k three other times (april 28 v Seattle, May 17 v Yankees and May 19 v the Mets). Anectdotal evidence suggests that a good number of the people at the 3 high attendance games of late (the Yankee game and the two Met games) were New Yorkers visiting the city for the weekend ball games (great for the city and the Jays but I doubt they needed GO trains after the game).

Since that 40k met game the Jays have only had two home games. Both against the first place Orioles and they have averaged 16,964 for those games.

Over the season so far (24 of 81 home games in) the Jays are averaging a little under 25k per game.

Then again, how many people visit NY and stay in Newark or something like that to avoid the crazy high hotel rates in Manhattan, and take the equivalent regional transit into the city? Wouldn't Mississauga love to have some of those tourists staying at their hotels vs staying downtown? Wouldn't having some sort of service bookending and event like the Jays help people make their decisions?

I return again to my stay in Cincinnati, while we knew that the hotel we chose was actually located in Covington, we did not realize just how far it was (roughly 2+ miles with a bridge crossing). So we were happy to see that there was a transit option to get us to and from the stadium.

 

[gweed123]

The Jays have exceeded 35k exactly twice this year....the home opener and that Mets game 2 weeks ago which took everyone by surprise.

Other than those two games they have exceeded 30k three other times (april 28 v Seattle, May 17 v Yankees and May 19 v the Mets). Anectdotal evidence suggests that a good number of the people at the 3 high attendance games of late (the Yankee game and the two Met games) were New Yorkers visiting the city for the weekend ball games (great for the city and the Jays but I doubt they needed GO trains after the game).

Since that 40k met game the Jays have only had two home games. Both against the first place Orioles and they have averaged 16,964 for those games.

Over the season so far (24 of 81 home games in) the Jays are averaging a little under 25k per game.

Weekend series tend to draw the most crowds, and to date we haven't seen very many big weekend match ups. The Red Sox in town this weekend will be a good example of what I'm talking about.

Just look at the Gardiner after those games though, it takes forever to clear. And most of those people heading westbound on the Gardiner are not going to destinations within Toronto.

On Jays weekend game days, the 12:10 and 1:10 arriving trains on Lakeshore West are pretty full. Not standing room only type of full, but every 4-seat area has at least 1 person sitting in it. Compared to those same trains on non-Jays weekends, I'd say it's probably 2-3x as many people.

Realistically for GO it wouldn't be that big of an expense, and it would help them boost their weekend revenue. For lines where a train isn't possible or the demand just quite isn't there, they can run a few more buses at specific times.

To make it easiest on people, what I would like to see is a "GO Jays Schedule" of special trains and/or buses on each of the lines, specifically tailored and scheduled for the Jays crowd. Maybe do it just on a couple weekends as a pilot and see how it goes. I think it would be quite successful, both for GO and for the Jays. Because as it stands now, it's a PITA for 905 Jays fans to get to games (parking is expensive and a pain, and transit options right now aren't that great).

 

[TOareaFan]

Weekend series tend to draw the most crowds, and to date we haven't seen very many big weekend match ups. The Red Sox in town this weekend will be a good example of what I'm talking about.

Just look at the Gardiner after those games though, it takes forever to clear. And most of those people heading westbound on the Gardiner are not going to destinations within Toronto.

On Jays weekend game days, the 12:10 and 1:10 arriving trains on Lakeshore West are pretty full. Not standing room only type of full, but every 4-seat area has at least 1 person sitting in it. Compared to those same trains on non-Jays weekends, I'd say it's probably 2-3x as many people.

Realistically for GO it wouldn't be that big of an expense, and it would help them boost their weekend revenue. For lines where a train isn't possible or the demand just quite isn't there, they can run a few more buses at specific times.

To make it easiest on people, what I would like to see is a "GO Jays Schedule" of special trains and/or buses on each of the lines, specifically tailored and scheduled for the Jays crowd. Maybe do it just on a couple weekends as a pilot and see how it goes. I think it would be quite successful, both for GO and for the Jays. Because as it stands now, it's a PITA for 905 Jays fans to get to games (parking is expensive and a pain, and transit options right now aren't that great).

It was tried when SkyDome first opened....each line (I believe all of them) had a train that sat at Union and left (I believe) 15 or 20 minutes after the last out. Not sure if that service was cut because of general budget cuts or lack of use/demand (likely a combo...there needed to be budget cuts and the demand for this, relative to core service, made it a target).

One of the issues with baseball is that, of all the sports, it has the least predictable game end time (no clock, potential for loooooong innings and looooooong extra inings) so you could have trains and staff idling for long times at Union. It also affects demand.......someone may not want to wait out a long extra inning game on a work/school night so would prefer to drive so they can leave when they wish.

I wasn't taking a jab at Jays' attendance overall (although it is a bit abysmal considering the size of the market) but your comment that they have been getting "mid-30k" numbers "lately" is just not true. They have, on ocassions (and yes this weekend is likely one of them) drawn bigger numbers for certain teams but the average speaks....and for the average to below 25k it has to be recognized that each of those bigger crowds is matched by significantly lower gates at other times.

The only point I was making by their average attendance is that when you made the point (probably valid) that crowd sizes at ACC events probably don't warrant any train service adustments it missed the point that, now, 7 of the Jays' 25 home games this year have had paid attendance that would, very comfortably, fit inside the ACC and a few others were only a couple of thousand over the ACC capacity. So how do you create a Jays schedule that deals with wildly varying demand and significantly varying game start times and game lengths?

It is not an easy thing to do.

 

[nfitz]

So how do you create a Jays schedule that deals with wildly varying demand and significantly varying game start times and game lengths?

Regular 30-minute off-peak service on all lines. Don't really see another solution.

I noticed recently one of the TTC Gloucester subway cars up in Halton has a vintage GO poster describing how the post-Blue Jays game trains works.

 

[TOareaFan]

Regular 30-minute off-peak service on all lines. Don't really see another solution.

That would solve more problems than just getting people to and from Jays' games!!

I noticed recently one of the TTC Gloucester subway cars up in Halton has a vintage GO poster describing how the post-Blue Jays game trains works.

Was my recollection even close?

 

[nfitz]

Was my recollection even close?

It sounded similar, but I only scanned it. Next time I'm there I'll take a picture; though I only seem to get there once every couple of years ... and it's harder to convince my daughter to wander through parked trains than ride on streetcars. (she was upset when we were there, with the trained signed for St. George, that we told her was the train that used to go to the ROM ... that she wouldn't be able to go there anymore, because the train was in a museum ...

 

[Jonny5]

TFC games seem to pack in a lot of people to Lakeshore West trains, especially considering it is such a small stadium. The proximity to the Ex Station must be a big boost. Also the ability to drink on the way and coming home is sure popular. There are sometimes enough empties left on the train to open a small LCBO.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I suppose all day regular service would be just as effective as having special 'Jays' or 'TFC' trains. As it deals with more issues than just the event. Once regular service begins than perhaps an analysis of game day specials would come after.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

“Really what we’re doing is a pilot to see what the potential is in other corridors. If it’s successful on the Barrie corridor, maybe we’ll try it on the Stouffville corridor next year as well,†said McNeil.

Judging the potential and maybe?
That doesn't exactly sound like a vote of confidence in regards to all day service on the branch lines, which was suppose to be one of GO's primary near-term goal's.

 

[Dan416]

Judging the potential and maybe?
That doesn't exactly sound like a vote of confidence in regards to all day service on the branch lines, which was suppose to be one of GO's primary near-term goal's.

My problem is more with the line they chose to gauge it and not the wishy-washy language (although that annoys somewhat as well).

They should do it on a line that already has proven off-peak ridership (cough-cough, Milton, cough-cough).

Although I recognize the potential problems with that, the amount of trains they're doing on Barrie are hardly extensive or prohibitive to do on other lines.

 

[doady]

I think GO/Metrolinx have a specific focus, and it is unlikely they will deviate from that anytime soon. When you have 90% cost recovery and rising, and your service is already a "success", there is little incentive for change from the status quo. When the TTC streetcar system was still private, there was no expansion of the system at all because the company wanted to maintain profitiabity (which was why the city decide to take over the system). GO/Metrolinx today is sort of like that, run like business for profit, complete with a "CEO" and a "Board of Directors" and everything. In other words, don't expect substantial improvements to all day GO Train service anytime soon, if ever.