GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[smallspy]

I'm of the mind that GO's wasting its time installing any system other than ERTMS. It's rapidly becoming the international standard, and anything else--particularly something cobbled together or homemade--is going to be less effective and incompatible with off-the-shelf equipment. That's especially true now that the Europeans have worked out most of the bugs for us.

You are assuming that ERTMS is going to actually be compatible with North American scenarios. There is a lot of testing to ensure that it does meet all of the requisite regulations, standards, etc. for things like interference, incompatibility and so on. Remember, this is a European standard designed to work in European situations and with European standards. It may be the best out there, but if it doesn't work here than it's useless. I don't disagree that it (or some derivative) may be the way of the future here, but all of these kinds of things need to be tested well in advance.

The signal system that is being installed is a standard ACTS2-based CTC system, the same as has been installed elsewhere in the Toronto area in the past couple of years.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[unimaginative2]

Of course it has to be tested, but somebody is going to have to do it if it will be usable in North America. Caltrain is considering it, I think, so they may do a lot of the testing themselves. I'm sure that some providers would be willing to contribute to the cost of testing if it meant that they would then be able to sell in North America.

 

[Electrify]

Q: Has GO ever considered having Stouffville trains stopping at Danforth and Scarborough Stations to increase frequency along this stretch of line? Many regional and commuter networks have lines which share stops near the city centre, creating a pseudo rapid transit line.

 

[RedRocket191]

Q: Has GO ever considered having Stouffville trains stopping at Danforth and Scarborough Stations to increase frequency along this stretch of line? Many regional and commuter networks have lines which share stops near the city centre, creating a pseudo rapid transit line.

They used to stop there before 1998 if Wikipedia is to be believed. I vaguely remember that one of the problems was that Lakeshore line passengers were crowding Stouffville passengers off of their trains, so improved service on the Lakeshore line allowed them to run express to (then) Agincourt.

Even if someone is moments from yelling at me because I have it totally wrong, this is still a problem that would need to be addressed if they were to start stopping at the common stations.

 

[Jonny5]

They used to stop there before 1998 if Wikipedia is to be believed. I vaguely remember that one of the problems was that Lakeshore line passengers were crowding Stouffville passengers off of their trains, so improved service on the Lakeshore line allowed them to run express to (then) Agincourt.

Even if someone is moments from yelling at me because I have it totally wrong, this is still a problem that would need to be addressed if they were to start stopping at the common stations.

I recall clearly that was exactly the reason for the change. What is beyond my recollection is if it was caused just by lack of service in general or a peculiar hole in the schedule that the Stoufville trains filled. I have a vague recollection that the Stoufville trains ran at the perfect time to catch people leaving work at 5 downtown, while the Lakeshore East trains were too early to catch and the following one was 10 or 15 minutes after the Stoufville. So naturally everyone going to Danforth and Scarb would pile into the Stoufville train and the Stoufville passengers would be blocked from getting on.

 

[GTS]

The Stouffville line is going to be running all day I heard. They are grade seperating the track on Sheppard @ the Agincourt GO station and I hope they grade separate more of this line, Danforth RD (just west of Midland, Progress, Finch, Steeles and some other less busy crossings as well such as Passmore, McNicoll and Huntingwood (because they have city buses on those roads as well). As well as grade separating the tracks from these busy streets it would be good to twin track them as well (or at least put some sidings where they can so that they can run all day two-way service of this line. Such an investment might attract a lot more commuter to opt for public transit if it were more frequent and convenient.

 

[canarob]

I recall clearly that was exactly the reason for the change. What is beyond my recollection is if it was caused just by lack of service in general or a peculiar hole in the schedule that the Stoufville trains filled. I have a vague recollection that the Stoufville trains ran at the perfect time to catch people leaving work at 5 downtown, while the Lakeshore East trains were too early to catch and the following one was 10 or 15 minutes after the Stoufville. So naturally everyone going to Danforth and Scarb would pile into the Stoufville train and the Stoufville passengers would be blocked from getting on.

It's before my time, but this would make sense. Some days we pick up Scrab and Danforth passengers in the morning when there's a delay on Lakeshore, but there often is nowhere for them to stand in our already packed trains. I would be ok with having some runs make these two stops if we had express trains, 12-car trains, etc. Otherwise, there just isn't room.

The Stouffville line is going to be running all day I heard. They are grade seperating the track on Sheppard @ the Agincourt GO station and I hope they grade separate more of this line, Danforth RD (just west of Midland, Progress, Finch, Steeles and some other less busy crossings as well such as Passmore, McNicoll and Huntingwood (because they have city buses on those roads as well). As well as grade separating the tracks from these busy streets it would be good to twin track them as well (or at least put some sidings where they can so that they can run all day two-way service of this line. Such an investment might attract a lot more commuter to opt for public transit if it were more frequent and convenient.

I think it will be decades before the entire line is grade separated and twinned. The major roads could all be done in the short to medium term though, I would think. If we run two trains an hour during rush hour, I don't think we need any more separations to run hourly all-day service assuming that passing track is built in the right places.

 

[smallspy]

Of course it has to be tested, but somebody is going to have to do it if it will be usable in North America. Caltrain is considering it, I think, so they may do a lot of the testing themselves. I'm sure that some providers would be willing to contribute to the cost of testing if it meant that they would then be able to sell in North America.

So then if testing needs to be done - and let's assume that it will take years to do, because we're talking about incredibly complex systems needing to interface with other complex systems - than why should any improvements to GO services need to be put off until the testing is complete? Why not install a legacy system that we know is compatible with the the systems in place as an interim, to get at least some of the improvements in place?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[DKsan]

Forget all day service for a moment:

What are the barriers for GO to be running peak reverse service, like one or two trains heading outwards during morning rush and inwards during evening rush? Manpower, trains, predicted ridership?

 

[CDL.TO]

Forget all day service for a moment:

What are the barriers for GO to be running peak reverse service, like one or two trains heading outwards during morning rush and inwards during evening rush? Manpower, trains, predicted ridership?

Yes, yes, yes, and the fact that all the lines other than Lakeshore are largely single-track (or, in the case of Milton, only has platforms on one track at many stations).

 

[liamdevlin02]

Yes, yes, yes, and the fact that all the lines other than Lakeshore are largely single-track (or, in the case of Milton, only has platforms on one track at many stations).

Wouldn't the Richmond Hill line be a good candidate to avoid those problems, since they're already running trains north in the morning and south in the evening?

 

[canarob]

From an Upcoming Markham Council Meeting (http://www2.markham.ca/markham/ccbs/indexfile/html/planning/agenda/pl120501.htm#_Toc323200775):

5. MARKHAM EAST TORONTO RAIL
ONTARIO-EXPRESS ALL DAY TRAIN SERVICE (5.14)

Note: On April 3, 2012 Council referred consideration of this motion to the meeting this date.

"WHEREAS the Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan 2009 (“The Big Move 2020”) identifies full day, 2-way service on the Stouffville line from Mount Joy to Toronto’s Union Station as part of the 15 year plan for Regional Rapid Transit; and,

Whereas GO Transit will be undertaking an Environmental Assessment (EA) study on the Stouffville line for future infrastructure improvements in Markham and Toronto to provide for the planned full day, 2-way service, to be operational between Markham Center and Toronto’s Union Station by 2014; and,

Whereas Metrolinx in 2013 is reviewing and updating its Regional Big Move 2020 Transportation Plan. The Stouffville Go Line should be considered for electrification in its entirety; and,

Whereas the Stouffville Rail Corridor Environmental Assessment process allows opportunities to consider alternative technologies. These alternative technologies include MagLev which is currently used in major centers and is extremely quiet, affordable, efficient and fast; and,

Whereas smaller, more cost effective diesel-electric multiple unit (DEMU), trains that are used throughout Europe, in use today in Ottawa on their O-Train line, and is currently being implemented between Toronto Pearson Airport and Union Station; and,

Whereas consideration should be given to go directly to Electric Train Technology for the Stouffville GO Line; and,

Whereas the electric technology will enable more frequent, lower cost service, with a greater number of new stations stops along the route and improve travel time to our transit riders; and,

Whereas the electric technology trains could carry a similar or larger number of transit rides than subway service; and,


And Whereas the Markham East Toronto Rail Ontario-Express (I-METRO-E) concept would enable more frequent headways, and more frequent transit stops along this approved north-south rapid transit corridor between Stouffville and Union Station; and,

Whereas this north-south corridor will also interconnect with a number of existing and planned east-west rapid transit corridors, including VIVA bus rapid transit, 407 Rail Transitway, Steeles BRT/LRT. Finch BRT/LRT, Sheppard, Eglinton-Crosstown, and Bloor-Danforth Subway, and Lakeshore East GO; and,

Whereas the I-METRO-E would stimulate transit dependant development (TDD) and redevelopment along I-METRO-E transit corridor; and,

Whereas climate change, global warming, end of oil and gridlock are issues facing all major cities, it is important that all station communities are TDD designed systems to be net zero in energy, waste and emissions and produce the best public realm and quality of life for our citizens; and,

Whereas I-METRO-E would reduce automobile dependence, energy consumption and would promote environmental, social and economic sustainability initiatives; and,

Whereas Metrolinx has allocated their budget for transit projects for the next five years and revenues from development charges, TIFs, Section 37, HST, taxes, Gas Taxes increased user fees, improve operating performance are viable and can be leveraged within a Public Private Partnership (P3) model;

Now therefore be it resolved:

1) That a steering committee co-chaired by Markham Regional Councillor Jim Jones and a member of Toronto Council selected by City of Toronto Council be created. The committee will determine its membership which will include members of Markham, Toronto Council and other municipalities and levels of Government. This committee will focus on station and rail strategy, TDD, community planning, Government Relationships and Public Private Partnerships; and,

2) That the Steering Committee seek advice from the participating government bodies, agencies and other sources as determined by the committee with respect to terms of reference and funding requirements for comprehensive studies and reports that would be required to pursue the I-METRO-E concept; and,

3) That a working group reporting to the steering committee be formed of representatives from Metrolinx, the City of Toronto, the Region of York, and the Town of Markham to review the need and justification of the I-METRO-E concept, and the associated transportation, land use planning and economic development benefits; and,

4) That Metrolinx and other government agencies and stakeholders at the Federal, Provincial, Regional and Municipal level be requested to consider the merit and implications of the I-METRO-E concept and Maglev/Electric/DEMU technology on the Stouffville rail line in the context of the current review and update of the Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan and Metrolinx Environment Assessment Study for the GO’s Stouffville Line; and further,

5) That copies of this resolution be forwarded to the Premier of Ontario, the Federal Ministers of Finance, Transportation, Infrastructure and the Provincial Ministers of Finance, Transportation and Infrastructure Ontario, East Toronto and Markham area MPP’s, the City of Toronto, the Mayor and Council members of the City Toronto, the Toronto Transit Commission, Metrolinx, York Region and York Rapid Transit Corporation."

 

[Electrify]

I recall clearly that was exactly the reason for the change. What is beyond my recollection is if it was caused just by lack of service in general or a peculiar hole in the schedule that the Stoufville trains filled. I have a vague recollection that the Stoufville trains ran at the perfect time to catch people leaving work at 5 downtown, while the Lakeshore East trains were too early to catch and the following one was 10 or 15 minutes after the Stoufville. So naturally everyone going to Danforth and Scarb would pile into the Stoufville train and the Stoufville passengers would be blocked from getting on.

Do that many people use these stations to overcrowd the trains though? Due to its proximity to the subway, limited transit connections and parking, and the cost and infrequency of the service I would have assumed most people who could use the Scarborough GO Station would opt to take the subway instead. This is especially true for Danforth, which has no parking, extremely inconvenient transit connections, and is much closer to downtown. To be honest, with the exception of the outer reaches of the municipality, I've always assumed that many people who use GO stations in the 416 are actually coming from the 905 and are destined for places in the inner suburbs.

 

[Platform 27]

Wouldn't the Richmond Hill line be a good candidate to avoid those problems, since they're already running trains north in the morning and south in the evening?

Richmond Hill has an end-of-line layover in the works to eliminate those empty train moves.

Also, the empty trains moving counterflow don't move particularly smartly at present --- there are only a few passing sidings and they have to stop and wait a fair bit to let the revenue trains past. I think GO sometime lashes two empty trains together to try and reduce the amount of track slotting needed.

 

[nfitz]

They used to stop there before 1998 if Wikipedia is to be believed.

I recall that the Stouffville schedule used to show trains stopping at Danforth - can't remember about Scarborough.

I can understand under the current timetable, that they may want to avoid stopping there, particularly now they can stop at Kennedy.

But I hope that they do start stopping again if they start running Stouffville off-peak or weekend service - as then train overcrowding is a non-issue - and it provides much needed extra service to the inner-city stations.