GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[sixrings]

For that very reason, It has taken decades to get electrification to the front burner. It’s about time.

- Paul

Sorry Paul. Apparently everyone here is in agreement and maybe I just don’t understand the pros to be electrified other than the environment. As a hybrid car owner I appreciate the environment but are there other tangible benefits.

Also as a Milton line user I’m like a broken record thinking this line needs to be fixed asap and the benefits are clear. All day go train service.

 

[Bojaxs]

Hamilton's want of the removal of the yard has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that GO services the area. They see it as usable land for the City - but not in its current configuration.

Where would CN move their Hamilton yard? It's conveniently located close to their Hamilton clients. Why would the city of Hamilton want to kick out a major employer who also probably pays taxes to the municipality? Get rid of the CN yard in Hamilton and you'll probably see more trucks in the area.

I've said it before, and will say it again - electrification need not prevent the use of freight trains. Hi-cube boxcars, autoracks and double-stack container cars run every single day in the Philadelphia area under the wire. There are other locations on the Northeast Corridor where freights run multiple times a day in concert with the hourly-plus Amtrak trains and even more frequent commuter trains. There is nothing physically preventing CN and CP allowing someone else to string up overhead other than their own stubbornness.

That's cool and all. But what's the point of electrifying the network if it won't lead to faster trains and service improvements because the trains still have to stop and wait for freight to go by? I thought one of the major selling points of electrification was faster trains and more frequency?

What's the point of electrifying only a portion of the line? Extending that logic, they shouldn't electrify the Lakeshore West line, the single most-used line on the network. It's a silly position to hang your hat on, and thankfully is not one that Metrolinx or the government is taking.

Because if electrifying doesn't lead to faster trains and more frequency then what's the point? This just becomes a vanity project, because we care too much what the rest of the world thinks about us

How much more improved service can Metrolinx get out of their diesel fleet by making substantial improvements to the existing rail infrastructure? If diesel trains are forced to slow down between Aldershot and West Harbour due to the curvature of the track, why would this not apply to electric trains as well? In regards to the Kitchener line, what about moving the Georgetown layover yard so trains are no longer forced to travel slow due to their proximity to the layover yard? Does there need to be more grade separation on all lines to allow for faster trains?

Metrolinx should assess where all the chokepoints are on their network that forces their trains to slow down and resolve those issues. Once completed, it would make more sense to start electrifying the network.

 

[adys123]

Where would CN move their Hamilton yard? It's conveniently located close to their Hamilton clients. Why would the city of Hamilton want to kick out a major employer who also probably pays taxes to the municipality? Get rid of the CN yard in Hamilton and you'll probably see more trucks in the area.

That's cool and all. But what's the point of electrifying the network if it won't lead to faster trains and service improvements because the trains still have to stop and wait for freight to go by? I thought one of the major selling points of electrification was faster trains and more frequency?

Because if electrifying doesn't lead to faster trains and more frequency then what's the point? This just becomes a vanity project, because we care too much what the rest of the world thinks about us

How much more improved service can Metrolinx get out of their diesel fleet by making substantial improvements to the existing rail infrastructure? If diesel trains are forced to slow down between Aldershot and West Harbour due to the curvature of the track, why would this not apply to electric trains as well? In regards to the Kitchener line, what about moving the Georgetown layover yard so trains are no longer forced to travel slow due to their proximity to the layover yard? Does there need to be more grade separation on all lines to allow for faster trains?

Metrolinx should assess where all the chokepoints are on their network that forces their trains to slow down and resolve those issues. Once completed, it would make more sense to start electrifying the network.

Because it will, electrification in it's current iteration is only happening on MX owned corridors so the full benefits that you've listed can be achieved.

 

[Bojaxs]

Because it will, electrification in it's current iteration is only happening on MX owned corridors so the full benefits that you've listed can be achieved.

So no Milton, Richmond Hill or Kitchener west of Bramalea. No midtown either. So much for GO trains being a regional service.

 

[adys123]

So no Milton, Richmond Hill or Kitchener west of Bramalea. No midtown either. So much for GO trains being a regional service.

I mean aside from the circumstances surrounding Milton, most of the high ridership routes and stations are covered by the program. Kitchener doesn't need 2-way all-day 15-minute service right this minute.

 

[Northern Light]

So no Milton, Richmond Hill or Kitchener west of Bramalea. No midtown either. So much for GO trains being a regional service.

The bolded is rather over-the-top.

You can certainly advocate for different priority projects or greater funding, fair game. But you harm your own case with such extreme statements that are contrary to the facts.

 

[Bojaxs]

The bolded is rather over-the-top.

You can certainly advocate for different priority projects or greater funding, fair game. But you harm your own case with such extreme statements that contrary to the facts.

So if someone wants to get from Oshawa to Milton, they can zoom into Union on an electric train, but then they have to wait around Union for an hour or more for the next Milton train to arrive. How is this sufficient regional service? Probably would have been quicker to just drive their car.

 

[T3G]

The bolded is rather over-the-top.

You can certainly advocate for different priority projects or greater funding, fair game. But you harm your own case with such extreme statements that contrary to the facts.

Especially considering that in its current iteration, GO is already very much a regional service, and will continue to be, even after GO expansion. The addition of infill stations and improved frequencies will certainly be useful to city dwellers, but it certainly won't turn into a second TTC.

 

[urbancog]

So no Milton, Richmond Hill or Kitchener west of Bramalea. No midtown either. So much for GO trains being a regional service.

OnExpress' proposal to improve performance of diesel powered trains is to have a 6-to-1 ratio of passenger cars to locomotive. You can see this in Metrolinx's rendering for the new Heritage Road Layover Yard:

Three 6+1 trains and one 12+2 train.
I believe this is so the diesel trains will accelerate / decelerate at rates closer to trains pulled by electric locos meaning they will progress along the electrified sections at similar rates.

 

[Northern Light]

So if someone wants to get from Oshawa to Milton, they can zoom into Union on an electric train, but then they have to wait around Union for an hour or more for the next Milton train to arrive. How is this sufficient regional service? Probably would have been quicker to just drive their car.

First, off, no one should be commuting from Oshawa to Milton.

Second, you can identify all manner of shortcomings/imperfections in existing and near/medium term rail plans; if unlimited money fell from the sky tomorrow you can't built it all, all at once. There simply aren't the qualified contractors/personnel to do so. That said, money will not fall from the sky, and one must prioritize different improvements.

In due course, there will be a midtown GO line, and Milton will be 2-way, all-day, to at least a 30M headway off-peak and possibly better. But that day isn't here yet.

Your post reads as perfection is the enemy of the good. Why bother making any improvements if you're not making everything in my transit fantasy happen tomorrow. A bit more nuance and measure would be welcome.

 

[tsm1072]

Where would CN move their Hamilton yard? It's conveniently located close to their Hamilton clients. Why would the city of Hamilton want to kick out a major employer who also probably pays taxes to the municipality? Get rid of the CN yard in Hamilton and you'll probably see more trucks in the area.

That waterfront land near downtown and Transit is extremely valuable to the city and really the last industrial use on the west end of the bay. It is also a fairly small yard and a new one can likely be built nearby that is better suited to CN and their customers requirements.

Location wise, I'm not sure if they could assemble enough land in the heavier industrial areas near Stelco and Dofasco. But they could definitely assemble a good portion of industrial land to the East of the city for a land along the North side of the mainland. It looks like between Fruitland and Fifty Road they could put together a string of land to create a good sized yard to handle the needs of the industrial clients in and around Hamilton.

 

[Bojaxs]

First, off, no one should be commuting from Oshawa to Milton.

uh, why not? Who are you to tell people where they can commute to and from? Is everyone in this Forum in agreement with this statement? Regardless, I was referring to someone who may be visiting Milton from Oshawa. Not a daily commute.

Second, you can identify all manner of shortcomings/imperfections in existing and near/medium term rail plans; if unlimited money fell from the sky tomorrow you can't built it all, all at once. There simply aren't the qualified contractors/personnel to do so. That said, money will not fall from the sky, and one must prioritize different improvements.

No unlimited money to improve current infrastructure, but unlimited money to electrify the network. Unlimited money for electric locomotives. My point being is Metrolinx should redirect funds from electrification towards more dedicated passenger tracks and infrastructure improvements. No "unlimited money" necessary.

I want to make it clear that I support electrification. But only if it offers faster trains and tangible benefits. The only argument being made for electrify trains if for the environment. Which in my mind, isn't enough of a reason to electrify.

 

[Northern Light]

uh, why not?

Because its an absurd distance to commute; yes, I would place KW-Toronto and Niagara-Toronto in the same way; those connections are justified based more on University Students and Tourists as well as commuters on portions of the route, raather than end to end.

Who are you to tell people where they can commute to and from?

Who are you to tell them where they can commute from? Why not Edmonton?

Answer: Because the travel time for that connection cannot be made reasonable at an affordable cost in the near term.

No unlimited money to improve current infrastructure, but unlimited money to electrify the network. Unlimited money for electric locomotives. My point being is Metrolinx should redirect funds from electrification towards more dedicated passenger tracks and infrastructure improvements. No "unlimited money" necessary.

The point of value-for-money is to invest where it can achieve the greatest good per dollar invested.

The cost of vast amounts of new dedicated track and new lines is in the billions before you operate a single new train.

There is no evidence that a mid-town corridor will offer or justify every 15M service or better on opening day; there is evidence that electrification of core parts of the GO network, will enable service increases on the order of 200% or greater, with shorter travel times.

But only if it offers faster trains and tangible benefits.

That is absolutely the intent. * faster travel times, not faster peak speeds, the key is faster acceleration/deceleration.

The only argument being made for electrify trains if for the environment. Which in my mind, isn't enough of a reason to electrify.

That is not the only argument being made.

 

[Metroscapes]

I think some people underestimate how much of the GO network is now owned by Metrolinx:View attachment 538288

A lot of people don't realize how much money the Liberals spent in the 2000's to make it that way as well - it's a fairly new thing that GO actually owns it's corridors. At the turn of the century GO owned almost none of it.

And if you want to see a good timeline of those transactions, just look here under the track ownership column.

Where would CN move their Hamilton yard? It's conveniently located close to their Hamilton clients. Why would the city of Hamilton want to kick out a major employer who also probably pays taxes to the municipality? Get rid of the CN yard in Hamilton and you'll probably see more trucks in the area.

That waterfront land near downtown and Transit is extremely valuable to the city and really the last industrial use on the west end of the bay. It is also a fairly small yard and a new one can likely be built nearby that is better suited to CN and their customers requirements.

Location wise, I'm not sure if they could assemble enough land in the heavier industrial areas near Stelco and Dofasco. But they could definitely assemble a good portion of industrial land to the East of the city for a land along the North side of the mainland. It looks like between Fruitland and Fifty Road they could put together a string of land to create a good sized yard to handle the needs of the industrial clients in and around Hamilton.

There's no doubt the City has wanted CN's yard gone for a long time. A couple points:

• They have been pushing for a new yard in the Milton area (though I can't speak to the relevance to Hamilton customers)
• There's yards at Aldershot and throughout the industrial sectors
• With Stelco's sale and future re-use of the lands, I think there's plenty of room to negotiate a new yard, if required

 

[Sunnyside]

I want to see improved passenger rail, but not at the expense of freight. There has to be a win/win solution for both passenger and freight. Demanding CN to move their Hamilton yard to make way for more passenger trains seems like it would hurt the freight network. Make it less efficient. Potentially result in more trucks on the road. Is there room for Metrolinx to build it's own dedicated tracks next to CN's west of the Burlington GO station? Can we not replicate Lakeshore East (Pickering - Oshawa) west of Burlington? It would be awesome to have some kind of "downtown - downtown" express connection between West Harbour and Toronto Union.

I don't know why there is so much focus on electrification when so much of the network still shares tracks with freight. To me it doesn't make sense to start electrifying the network until Metrolinx has more dedicated tracks. Build the freight bypasses for the Kitchener and Milton lines. Lay down dedicated tracks beside freight tracks for the Richmond Hill line and Lakeshore West, west of Burlington. What's the point of electrification if we're only going to electrify just a portion of the line? Or the fact that, as of right now, Milton will probably never see electrification.

Want improved service? Separate freight from passenger. Afterwards we electrify the network.

The problem is the cost of going from Burlington/Aldershot to Hamilton easily adds around $1B to any scheme to improve LSW. The marginal cost is just not worth it bundled into electrification- the tradeoff I suggested once was you’d perhaps have to cut all of the Stouffville Line to balance the table. You need a dedicated corridor that mostly does not fit easily, a grade separation of Bayview, and more. And I say this as a Hamiltonian that wants it quite badly- it doesn’t make sense for Metrolinx. It should certainly be next, but it is too much to sacrifice for too little in return. Hamilton’s ridership isn’t nearly as high as the rest of LSW anyhow, though we can argue that it’s because of trip types or limited service.

Edit: As for the yard issue, the definition of “close” for CN is not going to be the same as a passenger carrier. I’d wager that a new facility within 20km of the east industrial sector would be fine. It’s moreso a matter of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. The yard does not need to expand, so why move? The city doesn’t have the money to pay CN to move (ie, build a new one elsewhere) because if they did they would have 30 years ago. This is a very old conversation.