GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

Really all GO lines should be on 30 minutes or better service.

I think most here would agree with that....the question is do you get there by

1. Moving one line to 30 minute frequencies before any other line has any off peak service; or

2. Do you devote all your recources to getting all lines to current lakeshore service levels then start moving all lines to 30 minutes

I would pick number 2

 

[gweed123]

I think most here would agree with that....the question is do you get there by

1. Moving one line to 30 minute frequencies before any other line has any off peak service; or

2. Do you devote all your recources to getting all lines to current lakeshore service levels then start moving all lines to 30 minutes

I would pick number 2

Why not do a 6 month pilot project on the Lakeshore line, where service frequencies are increased to every 30 minutes? If the increase in ridership and revenue exceeds the added capital and operating costs, then keep it. If not, it can be proven that at this point it's uneconomical, and proceed with further upgrading of other lines.

EDIT: I realize this is not politically that pallitable, but hey let's face it, most people don't even know that GO is funded by the Province to begin with. And if this was done after an election, there wouldn't be much backlash. If it was decided that it wouldn't be kept, in 2 weeks people would forget it even happened.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Is it really worth while in the long run to worry about 30 minute services when electrifying the line would in theory allow for 15 minute or maybe even 10 minute intervals? If you look at investing in projects that provide a long term benefit and how to spend money most efficiently, I would say skip worrying about 30 minute service and concentrate on a much more beneficial goal.

It seems like GO is moving away from simply being about a commuter rail system and more towards developing a regional rail network. For better or worse, it may mean putting aside some short term goals and breaking from plans that were developed even just a few years ago. If they want to do it right, thats just part of how it goes.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

They don't have enough equipment to make dramatic increases in service frequency, expect incremental increases only as additional equipment comes on line for the next decade or so. Mid day 30 min service on the Lakeshore is feasible but there are logistical issues such as refueling and possible conflicts with CN and VIA movements on the West end. Also operational issues - such as a shortage of staff. There is barely enough staff to maintain current service levels and it takes 2 1/2 years to train new engineers.

 

[canarob]

This may be a stupid question, but now that the entire fleet of locomotives are MP40s, will GO be able to shave a few minutes off of each trip? I can't find it since this thread is so long, but I remember someone mentioning that trips will be a bit shorter. It seems faster now on the Stouffville line (ex., the schedule says arrival at union at 8:21, but it's been earlier than that), so I'm wondering if schedules will be adjusted in the spring to account for this?

 

[nfitz]

At a guess, I'd think the gain will be lost by having 12-car trains instead of 10.

I'd think there would be more of a gain once all the switch upgrades are finished at Union.

Given how much GO has started padding the schedules at Union (in order to improve their on-time performance), the early arrivals you are seeing might be nothing more than they've changed the arrival time at Union back a few minutes on the Stoufville line, like they have on Lakeshore ... for example on Lakeshore East, the scheduled arrivals at Union are all 3-4 minutes later than they used to be - even though the departure times at Danforth are unchanged.

This is called improving customer service, by improving on-time performance.

 

[smallspy]

Why not do a 6 month pilot project on the Lakeshore line, where service frequencies are increased to every 30 minutes? If the increase in ridership and revenue exceeds the added capital and operating costs, then keep it. If not, it can be proven that at this point it's uneconomical, and proceed with further upgrading of other lines.

30 minute service will not be able to pay for itself, and so requires an increase in subsidies. It was supposed to begin early last year, but was shelved because of the economic situation. GO doesn't have enough money to "experiment" with the service without getting that additional subsidy.

This may be a stupid question, but now that the entire fleet of locomotives are MP40s, will GO be able to shave a few minutes off of each trip? I can't find it since this thread is so long, but I remember someone mentioning that trips will be a bit shorter. It seems faster now on the Stouffville line (ex., the schedule says arrival at union at 8:21, but it's been earlier than that), so I'm wondering if schedules will be adjusted in the spring to account for this?

When they were first announced, GO did say that they would be able to shave some time off of each trip. Since then, they have developed a new formula for train-time scheduling that has given us a schedule that is so slack that trains are regularly sitting for 120 seconds or more. They don't seem interested in tightening up the schedules since doing so could cause more train trips to run late, and therefore negatively affect their beloved on-time performance.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

30 minute service will not be able to pay for itself, and so requires an increase in subsidies. It was supposed to begin early last year, but was shelved because of the economic situation. GO doesn't have enough money to "experiment" with the service without getting that additional subsidy.

I wasn't aware that the operational cost increase would be more than the additional revenue, thanks for clearing that up. To be honest, I thought the move would have been more or less revenue neutral.

When they were first announced, GO did say that they would be able to shave some time off of each trip. Since then, they have developed a new formula for train-time scheduling that has given us a schedule that is so slack that trains are regularly sitting for 120 seconds or more. They don't seem interested in tightening up the schedules since doing so could cause more train trips to run late, and therefore negatively affect their beloved on-time performance.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

To be honest, I don't care if the trip takes me a few minutes longer, as long as I'm there when they say I'm going to be there. Especially when you have someone waiting at the other end, knowing you'll show up when they say you'll show up is better than having to call them and say "yeah, the train is running late, sorry".

 

[Dan416]

I think most here would agree with that....the question is do you get there by

1. Moving one line to 30 minute frequencies before any other line has any off peak service; or

2. Do you devote all your recources to getting all lines to current lakeshore service levels then start moving all lines to 30 minutes

I would pick number 2

Oh I would definitely pick number 2 as well.....hourly service on all GO lines.

 

[doady]

Oh I would definitely pick number 2 as well.....hourly service on all GO lines.

Hopefully you meant hourly service on all GO Train lines, because hourly service would actually be a huge downgrade for many of GO's lines...

I don't think 60 minute is feasible for many GO Train lines though. Like Milton for example takes exactly an hour to travel between Milton and Union. The other train lines have run time slightly more than one hour as welll. So 60 minute frequency seems like it would be huge waste, trains sitting idle for long periods of time, and taking up space. 45 minutes would be better for all, except maybe the Barrie Line.

For Milton, as suggested before, all day service at 40 minute or 45 minute frequency between Erindale-Union is feasible (run time is around 35-38 minutes according the schedule). There is space for the train to layover at Erindale. Past Erindale, the only "urban" station is Streetville anyways...

For Lakeshore also, the run time according to the schedule from Aldershot to Oshawa is 127 minutes. That means they could increase the frequency to 45 minutes, if they wanted to, without adding a single train. I think 45 minute frequency is better than 60 minutes, but that's just me...

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

And of course, this would bring considerable costs in breaking apart and reforming trains several times a day.

True and hopefully MU's will help mitigate those costs.

We had the discussion in the subway extension threads but it's warreted here as well. Are, say, 2000 peak period passengers at a new station on a line's extension more valuable than 2000 off peak passengers at an existing station.

 

[gweed123]

True and hopefully MU's will help mitigate those costs.

We had the discussion in the subway extension threads but it's warreted here as well. Are, say, 2000 peak period passengers at a new station on a line's extension more valuable than 2000 off peak passengers at an existing station.

I would say the off-peak at an existing station, particularly when you factor in the capital it costs to extend the line and build the new station. If all you're doing is buying new rolling stock to provide the enhanced service at the existing station, I would imagine in nearly all cases that would outweigh the cost of building the new station. This may be different for GO though, because they're using existing tracks. However, building a new GO station, while the station itself may be less work than a TTC subway station, the parking lots at most GO stations are massive, so that's a lot more land they need to buy.

Also, assuming the 2,000 off-peak passengers at the existing station are generated by increased frequencies, that whole question is a bit of a false presumption, because that increased frequency will affect the entire line, not just that one station. It's not like GO would be decreasing headways only to service one station on a line. The headways at all stations along the line would presumably decrease, likely leading to an increase in ridership at all stations. Depending on their location, some would benefit more than others, but that benefit would still be across the line, not just at one station.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

GO is finalizing the Purchase of the Kingston subdivision. The transaction is to be completed on March 31st.

The section begins at mile 332.4 (start of the USRC rail corridor- GO owned) and ends at Durham Jct. - mile 314.0 (connection to the GO owned GO sub). With this purchase the Lakeshore East & Uxbridge lines will be completely under GO transits jurisdiction. They will join the Barrie line in this capacity.

 

[Dan416]

GO is finalizing the Purchase of the Kingston subdivision. The transaction is to be completed on March 31st.

The section begins at mile 332.4 (start of the USRC rail corridor- GO owned) and ends at Durham Jct. - mile 314.0 (connection to the GO owned GO sub). With this purchase the Lakeshore East & Uxbridge lines will be completely under GO transits jurisdiction. They will join the Barrie line in this capacity.

How about some purchases on the Milton line. *sniff*

 

[ShonTron]

GO is finalizing the Purchase of the Kingston subdivision. The transaction is to be completed on March 31st.

The section begins at mile 332.4 (start of the USRC rail corridor- GO owned) and ends at Durham Jct. - mile 314.0 (connection to the GO owned GO sub). With this purchase the Lakeshore East & Uxbridge lines will be completely under GO transits jurisdiction. They will join the Barrie line in this capacity.

So if I'm correct, GO already owns the entire CN Uxbridge Sub (except what was abandoned Lindsay-Uxbridge) the entire Weston Sub, the entire Newmarket Sub and the USRC-Canpa portion of the Dundas Sub as well as the CP USRC-West Toronto Galt Sub? (and of course, the GO sub between Pickering and Oshawa).

That would then leave only the CN Bala Sub (Richmond Hill), CN Halton Sub (Bramalea-Georgetown), CP Galt Sub (West Toronto-Milton) and CP between Bayview Junction and the TH&B station?

GO may not yet make the most of it, but that would put it in a suddenly enviable position amongst North American passenger railways.