GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[lenaitch]

This type of discussion always reminds me of the Popular Mechanics magazine articles that we'd all be moving around in flying cars by now. Anything that I have read predicts that fully autonomous passenger vehicles are a long way out from general, year-round adoption.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

True level 5 autonomous cars is going to be hard because of too many variable paths, reaching level 4 for buses would be a lot easier because you would be programming in defined paths, so it doesn't need to worry about routing. Also, as most of the cost of a bus is the driver, the cost to run buses would plunge.

I almost got into an argument on Reddit with someone who thought New York should tear all their track out and replace their trains with self driving Tesla buses.

Never mind the fact that trains have higher capacity, higher efficiency, lower maintenance, don't have to bring a battery along with them, ...

If their argument was that for new transit, focusing on buses would be a better value proposition because of self driving vehicles in the future making operations much cheaper, that would be reasonable. But ripping out a rail system for Tesla buses is insane, the cost to change it over and have the same capacity would be cost prohibitive. Maintaining a rail system is a lot easier than building a new one. Likewise, if you have trolleybuses, then maintaining and extending it using battery trolleybuses and expanding the wiring system as needed probably makes sense, even if building a new trolleybus system would not make sense.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

True level 5 autonomous cars is going to be hard because of too many variable paths, reaching level 4 for buses would be a lot easier because you would be programming in defined paths, so it doesn't need to worry about routing. Also, as most of the cost of a bus is the driver, the cost to run buses would plunge.

One of my pet theories on level 4 and 5 is that streetcars and light rail are one of the best testing grounds possible for a lot of the trickier aspects of them, and should be feasible a lot sooner than autonomous taxis or whatever true self-drive rolls out as first.

Imagine the effect if Toronto were able to set streetcar frequency without regard to operator pay, even with no other changes.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

One of my pet theories on level 4 and 5 is that streetcars and light rail are one of the best testing grounds possible for a lot of the trickier aspects of them, and should be feasible a lot sooner than autonomous taxis or whatever true self-drive rolls out as first.

Imagine the effect if Toronto were able to set streetcar frequency without regard to operator pay, even with no other changes.

Yes, Rail would be the easiest thing, imagine if someone could make something like the Scarborough RT, but more modern and self driving.

Autonomous rail vehicles aren't a game changer because the costs are mostly capital, so it isn't saved, whereas for buses, the cost is mostly the operator with low capital costs. This means the Total Cost of Ownership of autonomous buses would drop substantially, especially since this would be paired with electric motors simplifying maintenance (reducing mechanic needs).

 

[Divas S.]

Yes, Rail would be the easiest thing, imagine if someone could make something like the Scarborough RT, but more modern and self driving

it's almost like the SRT already drives itself, if only we lived in that world.

 

[robmausser]

something like the Scarborough RT, but more modern and self driving.

Jesus H Christ man, do your research! This is embarrassing. Not just for you, but the fact that Ontario spent billions in the ICTS UDTC program and people in this city don't even know that it used one of the most revolutionary self-driving technologies at the time, in 1985!

 

[LeanMeanMemeMachine]

Yes, Rail would be the easiest thing, imagine if someone could make something like the Scarborough RT, but more modern and self driving.

So, the Vancouver SkyTrain?

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

it's almost like the SRT already drives itself, if only we lived in that world.

Jesus H Christ man, do your research! This is embarrassing. Not just for you, but the fact that Ontario spent billions in the ICTS UDTC program and people in this city don't even know that it used one of the most revolutionary self-driving technologies at the time, in 1985!

This was actually my point, we have had self driving rail for 35 years, but the future was stalled by unions and regulations, and even when done like the SkyTrain, it is still quite expensive. The real game changer is autonomous buses because they would be relatively cheap, and the operating systems are much less. This could make it much more affordable to build a major transit system, remember, even in Toronto, the bus system moves around as much as the subway (in normal times). Imagine if in addition to the electric GO RER, there was also a fleet of electric autonomous GO buses connecting Southern Ontario

So, the Vancouver SkyTrain?

That was the joke, but also the SRT can basically do it itself

 

[ssiguy2]

[QUOTE="Allandale25, post: 1564458, member:
^ There's a June Board meeting coming up. I assume they'll mentioned the RFP for GO Expansion (which includes electrification) and any updates to the DBFOM model. In Metrolinx's defense, they made need to wait until the Finance ministry and Infrastructure Ontario provide an update/direction given what covid-19 has done to the finances of the Province.

That said, I recall a recent quote where Ford said no capital projects have changed.
[/QUOTE]

So by the term "update", I assume that they still haven't made up their minds. How many updates on a single decision can one transit agency make? Seriously, GO RER was announced over 5 years ago and they still haven't even decided what trains or technology they are going to use little alone build any. I know Torontonians are use to iinertia on the transit file but this really is scandalous.

 

[Amare]

So by the term "update", I assume that they still haven't made up their minds. How many updates on a single decision can one transit agency make? Seriously, GO RER was announced over 5 years ago and they still haven't even decided what trains or technology they are going to use little alone build any. I know Torontonians are use to iinertia on the transit file but this really is scandalous.

And here lies the problem with transit "planning" in the province. The government does plan after plan, study after study, until the cows come home.

The amount of feet dragging that goes on is just laughable and shows they're not serious about this project.

 

[lenaitch]

This was actually my point, we have had self driving rail for 35 years, but the future was stalled by unions and regulations, and even when done like the SkyTrain, it is still quite expensive. The real game changer is autonomous buses because they would be relatively cheap, and the operating systems are much less. This could make it much more affordable to build a major transit system, remember, even in Toronto, the bus system moves around as much as the subway (in normal times). Imagine if in addition to the electric GO RER, there was also a fleet of electric autonomous GO buses connecting Southern Ontario


That was the joke, but also the SRT can basically do it itself

Assuming 5G frequencies for full autonomy, the rule of thumb for tower range is ~500 metres. That's roughly 150 towers just for the corridor between Toronto and Barrie. Now let's consider winter.

 

[rbt]

Assuming 5G frequencies for full autonomy, ...

What do you mean by 5G frequencies? 5G, like LTE before it, will be deployed on everything from 600Mhz (band 71 will be common in Canada) up to ensure full coverage. Lower spectrum with older technologies (like 2G/3G) will be redeployed to newer hardware. Also, 5G (New Radio) can be deployed on spectrum also used by LTE since both use time multiplexing.

It was designed to be capable of being deployed on very high frequencies but it is not restricted to them.

 

[drum118]

Both CN and CP have rejected electrification of their line due to Double stack cars and other things.

Maybe they should setup a test area of many KM to see what issue there maybe and how to fix it or deal with it.

If other counties around the world can do testing and then set the standards for the system why not in NA??

The big different between the world and NA, we run long trains over a 100 cars while most systems in Europe only see 40 cars, but testing longer trains at this time. Then, passenger service is top dog in Europe compare the opposite in NA.

End of the day, time to electrification all lines until another power source that clean comes along.

Indian Railways starts double-stack electric operation

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

Assuming 5G frequencies for full autonomy, the rule of thumb for tower range is ~500 metres. That's roughly 150 towers just for the corridor between Toronto and Barrie. Now let's consider winter.

5G is needed for full autonomy for cars, not buses, because cars need to be able to be fully autonomous everywhere while buses have predefined routes programmed in, with some detours. Fortunately the provincial government owns a strip of land that connects Toronto and Barrier that GO Transit would be able to use. I never said it would be around the corner, the areas where it will happen sooner is BRT, which has defined routes, and places where they can mount equipment, with dedicated lanes. In the nearer future, we could see advanced driver aids make it much easier for a place like Toronto to run 100ft bi-articulated buses, which offer major potential operating savings. YRT has BRT, MiWay & Brampton are going to build some, Toronto is looking at bus lanes, together they have the purchasing power to get bi-articulated buses offered by Canadian manufacturers, combined with tech Waterloo. to make them easier to run.

 

[cplchanb]

Both CN and CP have rejected electrification of their line due to Double stack cars and other things.

Maybe they should setup a test area of many KM to see what issue there maybe and how to fix it or deal with it.

If other counties around the world can do testing and then set the standards for the system why not in NA??

The big different between the world and NA, we run long trains over a 100 cars while most systems in Europe only see 40 cars, but testing longer trains at this time. Then, passenger service is top dog in Europe compare the opposite in NA.

End of the day, time to electrification all lines until another power source that clean comes along.

Indian Railways starts double-stack electric operation

North american rail companies are only interested in the status quo. They have little ambition to improve and progress with the rest of the world. We are in the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality and if spending a cent can be saved they will do it. That is also why there's so many derailments. Can and cp are either reactive or retroactive to infrastructures repair never proactive. If they were proactive, their mainlines would've been al electric by now.