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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

Is this corroborated by anything, or just something heard off the grapevine?

It's an inside grapevine. Take it for what it's worth.

Which is why I'm so eager to see some documentation appear publicly.

The one thing we know for sure is, IO has certainy gone quiet about the RFP's which closed some time ago.

- Paul
 
It's an inside grapevine. Take it for what it's worth.

Which is why I'm so eager to see some documentation appear publicly.
Interesting- makes me wonder if these projects still able to access Federal funding.

It could be that funding priorities/methods are being shifted around, especially considering that station procurement has also been changed to prioritize private funding and that Ford intends to fully fund several of Toronto's transit projects.

The 2019 budget still mentions potential electrification, with possibly a heavier emphasis on the private sector- maybe sort of a REM/Canada Line-style procurement method with access to the Federal Infrastructure Bank?
The Province is already undertaking infrastructure work to help expand GO Transit rail services. Across the network, capital projects such as track work, rail maintenance, noise walls and grade separations are well underway. The next stage of delivering the GO Rail Expansion program will take place throughout 2019. Metrolinx will be moving forward with critical procurements, including additional infrastructure work along the corridors and at the stations. The Province will look to the private sector to propose innovative approaches to meet future GO Transit rail service levels, including opportunities for technology that could be used to electrify core segments of the GO Transit rail network, such as an overhead catenary system or hydrogen fuel cells.


For all we know, hopefully the next few months will put an end to the uncertainty.
 
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Lately in my GO rides I have lucked into twin sets of the new Tier IV locos. Even on a 12 car train, the increased acceleration is impressive. Of course, we are talking 10800 hp for a two-loco set as opposed to one 4000hp MP40, but it felt almost like electrification.
Twin sets of the new locos? Great Scott! Was there a flux capacitor too?

I bet they were doing this for testing's sake, like what acceleration can be achieved with future electric locomotive(s) pulling a 12-coach bilevel.
 
Twin sets of the new locos? Great Scott! Was there a flux capacitor too?

I bet they were doing this for testing's sake, like what acceleration can be achieved with future electric locomotive(s) pulling a 12-coach bilevel.

Maybe. Those Amtrack Sprinters can kick out 8,600hp for a couple minutes (then they overheat).
 
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What’s interesting is how low that maximum speed is - generally 50something mph, and in one case as low as 44 mph. On track that’s good for 80-95 mph. The point being, any further acceleration just means heavier braking coming into the next station..... any extra fuel used is lost as heat during braking. GO prefers to keep the speed lower and pad the schedule accordingly.
This has concerning implications for engine wear and emissions too. Internal combustion engine wear goes up geometrically under hard acceleration. Electric propulsion not, save perhaps for bearing wear, which is rarely a concern in modern electric motors. Noise from IC engines also increases geometrically under heavy acceleration/loading.
And no, without the wires, hydrail won’t let you do that, and the peak power input isn’t there yet as hydrail can’t deliver high power output yet. Batteries aren’t as good as catenary for either energy output or recovery.
Batteries can actually provide a very low 'source impedance' for electric propulsion, for very short periods of time. Think your car's starting motor and typically hundreds of amps of 'cranking current'. Batteries don't like it, even super-capacitors are fatigued by repetitive charge/discharge cycles under duress. The only way to supply a *continuous low impedance source* of Current X Voltage = Power is heavy catenary. And it's very efficient at doing it if well-designed. There's no mistaking why many advanced nations are continuing their OHE programs. Even as batteries are getting 'lighter' (per power density) you're still dragging around extra weight, and that's an immediate performance penalty for acceleration, even if the weight is partly offset by regenerative braking (only a percentage can be recovered in the best of systems).
The 2019 budget still mentions potential electrification, with possibly a heavier emphasis on the private sector- maybe sort of a REM/Canada Line-style procurement method with access to the Federal Infrastructure Bank?
It's mentioned in passing as a nod to 'possibility'. I think what will happen is that when certain routes are effectively 'privatized' (but still run as part of the greater Metrolinx system) that the corporate entity(ies) running them will electrify on a case by case basis. I'm the messenger on that, it's not my message. It's a case of where corporations have a lot more sense than the present QP regime.
 
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Hydrogen conversely takes gets some of it's power from regenerative braking.

Catenary definitely uses less electricity per km travelled, it is more efficient than hydrail which is one of it's strengths. There is however a down side to this. Although catenary uses less power, it also uses it's power directly from the grid at peak times when the electricity prices are highest as opposed to hydrail which produces the hydrogen in the middle of the night when prices are the lowest. Catenary by using it's power at peak times, also can be subject to brown outs especially in the heat of the summer when air conditioners are going full blast and the overall electrical grid is already under strain.

Still, due to catenary's better usage of power, it is more efficient but again that doesn't mean it is more cost effective. Forgetting the much larger initial infrastructure costs of catenary, operational costs are less predictable and are higher due to catenary upkeep and replacements. This happens frequently during ice, snow, and wind storms which doesn't effect hydrail. This makes hydrail expenses more predictable which private companies want.
 
Although catenary uses less power, it also uses it's power directly from the grid at peak times when the electricity prices are highest
It's purchased at a fixed price in bulk. Not only that, it forms what's termed a "baseline load" or "ballast" to the distribution grid and generation, stabilizing voltage, and by using reactors (inductive types, not nuclear) it's still usable during brownouts by dynamic regulation. Many of the vehicles themselves now have regulation intrinsic in their design as part of the reformation process of line feed to triple phase motor supply.
Still, due to catenary's better usage of power, it is more efficient but again that doesn't mean it is more cost effective.
When conversion costs are added to the Hydrogen cycle, let alone the myriad of hidden costs, catenary supply is invariably cheaper.
 
My understanding is that the MP40-T4AC don't provide much more power at the rail than the prior models. The 5400 vs 4000 hp calculation upthread is incorrect because the T4s provide head end power from the two main engines - the "4000hp" quoted upthread does not included the 1000hp auxiliary HEP engine on those older units.
 
Still, due to catenary's better usage of power, it is more efficient but again that doesn't mean it is more cost effective. Forgetting the much larger initial infrastructure costs of catenary, operational costs are less predictable and are higher due to catenary upkeep and replacements. This happens frequently during ice, snow, and wind storms which doesn't effect hydrail. This makes hydrail expenses more predictable which private companies want.
"Cost effective" by what measure? The regimes that fumble electrification? Ontario used to claim to have "the best electrical system in the world" two generations ago. "Live Better Electrically". The bragging about the "CANDU" reactors was incessant. Now Ontario lags most of the developed world on matters electrical, including the Metrolinx 'off-switch' on electrification, just like the now backward UK Conservative regime in Westminster:

Getting electrification right
BY DAVID SHIRRES BSC CENG MIMECHE DEM
4TH JUNE 2018
[...]
Electrification cost challenge

As our accompanying feature “Why electrify?” explains, a diesel-powered bi-mode can never offer the performance, environmental and reduced operating cost benefits offered by electric traction.

This is also the view of Dr Jenifer Baxter, head of engineering at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, who, in a recent press release, stated that it is wrong for the Government to claim that the benefits of electrification can be delivered by bi-mode trains as they “do not provide the required performance or offer the most efficient or environmentally friendly solution”.

However, electrification’s benefits will not be realised unless the industry can convince the Government that it can be delivered at an acceptable cost. This is a significant challenge given that, in its report on the cancellation of electrification projects, the NAO noted that, in addition to the previously mentioned increase in GWML costs, Midland main line electrification costs had increased from £695 to £1,297 million between October 2013 and November 2014. Furthermore, electrification project delays do not inspire confidence in project delivery.

The Railway Industry Association (RIA), however, feels that the industry can and must deliver electrification at a lower cost. Hence, its “Electrification Cost Challenge” initiative is intended to demonstrate that electrification need not be so expensive. This is being led by RIA technical director David Clarke, who advises that RIA considers that electrification remains the optimum technical solution for intensively used railways if it can be delivered at an acceptable cost.

Although much has gone wrong with GWML electrification, David considers that it is not helpful to assign blame, especially as he feels that “the whole industry got it wrong”. The important thing is to recognise the problems and learn lessons as RIA’s electrification cost challenge initiative is doing. Rail Engineer has seen the initial findings of this work, which includes benchmarking and cost saving opportunities.

RIA’s benchmarking includes the electrification of 1,362 stk in Denmark over a twelve-year period and in Germany, the 225 stk Ulm to Lindau electrification, both of which are costing circa £1 million/stk. It would seem that these relatively low costs are the result of a steady rolling programme.
[...]
What went wrong?

Amongst the various investigations into the GWML electrification programme was one by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). This concluded that Network Rail failed to plan the work properly and its cost estimating was poor. It also noted that Network Rail was unable to explain why there had not been a Transport and Works Act application to avoid a piecemeal approach to the required consents that had delayed the programme.

The committee was also critical of the Department for Transport (DfT) which, it considered, was not an effective client. Furthermore, it found that the DfT had not managed the electrification programme and the associated train procurement as a whole. Thus, rather than being derived from a bottom up programme, the GWML electrification completion date was set by the delivery date for the trains that the DfT had ordered.

The National Audit Office (NAO) report concluded that Network Rail’s original plan was based on over-optimistic assumptions including underestimating the amount of bridge work and overestimating the output of its new ‘factory train’ at 18 piles per shift instead of the average of five achieved in practice.

A key factor not mentioned in these reports was that, when work started on the GWML programme, there had been negligible electrification undertaken in the previous twenty years. As a result, both Network Rail and its contractors had lost key skills and knowledge since the 1994 Heathrow electrification. In addition, there were inevitable inefficiencies associated with the rapid mobilisation of the supply chain for large-scale electrification work.

Britain’s ‘feast and famine’ approach to electrification is illustrated by the graph of UK electrification volumes delivered since 1958. This year, Britain will electrify almost 900 stk, followed by less than 200 stk the following year, after which there are no committed schemes. In contrast, Germany has been electrifying around a steady 200 stk a year for the past 40 years.
[...]
http://www.railengineer.co.uk/2018/06/04/getting-electrification-right/

Be sure to read the comments to above:
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2018/06/04/getting-electrification-right/#comments
 
Catenary has higher operational costs in terms of it's upkeep. More than any other technology,.... diesel, natural gas, mono, 3rd, 4th, hydrogen, or battery,......….catenary systems are most prone to weather. Even linear is more reliable as, although susceptible to ice and snow, is not effected by wind storms. These can cause a lot of disruptions and a lot of money as well as catenary wires having to be replaced on a regular basis due to wear and tear which no other system has to contend with.

These unexpected upkeeps are loathed by the private sector as they want a system with the most consistent expenses...........unlike government, they don't have endless amounts of money. Private companies can also not afford unpredictable revenue, which again due to catenary's susceptibility to the whims of Mother Nature, can cause large scale shutdowns. When a diesel, natural gas, hydrogen, or battery train breaks down, the system keeps running as the train is simply taken out of service. Wires down on a catenary system however can bring the entire line down.
 
Catenary has higher operational costs in terms of it's upkeep. More than any other technology,....hydrogen......
lol...and how do you know how much Hydrogen would cost for the entire energy cycle? Do you have a time machine? How much does the time machine cost to run, or are you on time payments? At least you'd never have a late payment, you'd just go back in time to pay the bill. Sort of like a Perpetual Motion device.
182307
5:04
Are perpetual motion machines possible?

Physics Girl
YouTube - Dec 8, 2015
182308
5:31
Why don't perpetual motion machines ever work? - Netta Schramm

TED-Ed
YouTube - Jun 5, 2017
These unexpected upkeeps are loathed by the private sector
And how were the private sector examples in your visit to the future? Seems to me there's no shortage of private sector catenary systems. Where are these private sector hydrail systems?

I want to run my truck on wind-up spring. Costs are very low...save for the motor to wind-up the string..I rent a football team.
 
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Thank you for your highly intellectual response, I'll give it all the consideration it's due.
You haven't justified any of your claims with reference even in describing the necessary facets of the cycle. All that Hydrogen fuel in this part of the world does is offset the emission source, and in fact increases emissions compared to a more direct source to end utilization.

Germany has had an historic emphasis on H production for commercial and security reasons I won't go into. Suffice to reference:
German energy grids say plans ready for 100MW hydrogen plant ...
https://www.reuters.com/...opengrideurope-hydrogen/german-energy-grids-say-plans-...

Feb 11, 2019 - FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German power and gas grid firms Amprion and Open GridEurope (OGE) said on Monday they would shortly apply to build the country’s first large hydrogenplant that can convert windpower to alternative fuels that are easier to store and transport.
[...]
“Germany’s climate targets, the withdrawal from nuclear energy, and the concrete-looking exit from coal present big challenges to our energy system,” said Amprion board member Klaus Kleinekorte.

“We have to create conditions now to have power-to-gas (ptg) technology ready in the gigawatt (GW) dimension by 2030, so that we arrive at a system where we can couple different energy sectors.”
[...]
A national coal exit commission on Jan. 26 made specific recommendations that gas infrastructure, and with it ptg, are to be promoted to incentivise alternative fuels for industry, heat and transport.

Germany has been experimenting with ptg technology since the last decade and is home to around 40 ptg pilot projects, but the biggest so far only measures 6 MW.

Lingen, where Amprion grids converge with OGE pipelines, houses hydrogen distribution facilities, gas storage caverns and pipelines running to the Ruhr region, that could be converted to carrying hydrogen rather than retire in the long term.
None of that is in the future for Ontario, quite the opposite in fact, and if the F Boys at QP and other knee-jerk Premiers get their way, it'll be kicked even further back.

But even the most rabid H supporters who have a sense of perspective counsel caution on the hype:
[...]
Another criticism often made of hydrogen is that a significant amount is still produced using fossil fuels. In the United States, most hydrogen is produced via a process called natural gas reforming, in which natural gas is reacted with high-temperature steam to produce hydrogen, carbon monoxide and a small amount of carbon dioxide. It can also be made by gasifying brown coal, which also results in CO2 production.

“If you follow either of those routes to get hydrogen, there are some carbon dioxide emissions that come from those routes, so the only way you can make that zero emission is to couple that with carbon capture and storage,” says Andrews. “And that’s still a big question as to whether that can be viable, whether it’s going to be safe and we can keep that carbon dioxide for thousands of years under the ground and whether it can ever be economic.”

Measured Approach

There is a sense of urgency to discussions about hydrogen, reflecting the widespread acknowledgment that there is a need to decarbonize transport, Ruf says. She argues that while there is a range of solutions on the table, hydrogen is able to address issues that other technologies can’t do quite so easily or cost-effectively.

But while there is much excitement about the potential of hydrogen, Ruf also counsels for a measured approach.

“The problem we have I guess as a sector for supporting hydrogen fuel-cell technology is that we have to be wary of the hype and we have to be able to manage expectations,” she says. “It’s something that takes time and investment. It will not happen overnight, but in the long-term it’s a very good solution.” View Ensia homepage
https://ensia.com/features/hydrogen-fuel/

Catenary is needed on the GTHA Metrolinx routes, and it's needed yesterday.
 
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If catenary is the preferred choice then fine, they should get on with it and build the damn thing. The amount of time this has taken just to get figure out the technology, little alone build it, is absurd.

I have NEVER said that catenary was a bad choice. My points have been centered on the huge infrastructure costs and construction times it will take. If Metrolinx thinks those initial costs are justified then go for it. The only thing that I have against catenary that is unique to it is the horrid visual pollution. A catenary corridor makes any line look like an industrial zone from the slums of Calcutta but that is a personal point of view.

My point of operational costs is that catenary systems probably have one {ïf not thee} lowest regular operational costs but also one of the more unpredictable ones as, more than any other option, catenary is heavily effected by the weather. For private companies, they want stability and predictability in both revenues and expenditures and the system with potentially the most problems/repairs due to weather, it doesn't provide them that. Unlike government which just pays the bills and adds it to the debt, private companies have to shell out those costs themselves......……….unlike government they are not a bottomless pit.
 
catenary is heavily effected by the weather. For private companies, they want stability and predictability in both revenues and expenditures and the system with potentially the most problems/repairs due to weather, it doesn't provide them that.
Well best you straighten out a raft of highly successful European ones, starting with:
LKAB Malmtrafik, earlier Malmtrafik i Kiruna AB (MTAB), is a Swedish railway company which operates the iron ore freight trains on the Iron Ore Line and the Ofoten Line. MTAB is a wholly owned subsidiary of the mining company Luossavaara–Kiirunavaara (LKAB). In Norway, operations are handled by the subsidiary Malmtrafikk AS (MTAS). Malmtrafik hauls ore from LKAB's mines in Kiruna, Malmberget and Svappavaara to the ports of Luleå and Narvik, the latter located in Norway. The company owns 28 Iore locomotives and 750 hopper cars. Each train is 68 cars long and weighs 8,600 tonnes (8,500 long tons; 9,500 short tons), allowing the company to transport 33 million tonnes per year.

Traditionally the ore hauling had been done by the Swedish State Railways (SJ) and Norwegian State Railways (NSB). In the late 1980s, LKAB started a process to take over operations and increase efficiency by using heavier and longer trains. Because of the profitability in the operations, especially NSB was reluctant to lose the operations. In 1993, LKAB received permission to operate their own trains in Sweden, and from 1996 in Norway. MTAB and MTAS were created in 1996 when they took over the hauling formerly operated by NSB and SJ. It inherited Dm3 and El 15 locomotives. Originally established as a joint venture between LKAB, NSB and SJ, with the mining company as a majority owner, LKAB bought the whole company in 1999. By 2011, the renewal process will be finished, and only trains pulled by Iore will be in operation. [...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LKAB_Malmtrafik

Here's the map:
182504


Map of the Ore Line and the Ofoten Line

Take careful note of where the Arctic Circle is. And also note, as detailed a number of times prior in this string, that passenger trains are also run over this line:
Arctic Circle Train


Details
Catch the Arctic Circle Train to visit many exciting destinations between Kiruna (Sweden) and Narvik (Norway). Combine spectacular scenery with skiing and a killer whale safari. Kiruna is the place to experience the midnight sun, polar night and the fantastical Northern Lights as they illuminate the skies with cascades of colour. Kiruna is also the place to go dog sledding and cross-country skiing through forests and alongside lakes, to visit Esrange, Europe’s largest civil space centre, or witness the historical relocation of Kiruna. Close to Kiruna is Jukkasjärvi, where you can visit the world-renowned Ice Hotel and find out how it feels to sleep in a bed made of ice. This Norwegian coastal town offers exciting killer whale safaris where these giants can be watched in their natural habitat. There are also many excellent ski slopes in Narvik.
[...]
https://www.scandinavianrail.com/scenicrail/sweden/arctic-circle-train

For some odd reason, batteries and diesel don't do well in that climate...
Or H fuel cells:
https://www.researchgate.net/post/W...ce_of_PEM_fuel_cell_in_vehicular_applications
 
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