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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
[QUOTE="smallspy, post: 1427446, member: 6170"
That's a hell of an assumption on your part, considering that they haven't even picked out a winning consortium to provide the service, nevermind the vehicle type. For all any of us know, it may Silverliner Vs - which are totally FRA-compliant (and thus can be made to be TC compliant reasonably easily).
Dan
[/QUOTE]
You are of course right, they could use a Siverliners or any of the monster cabins they have now on their diesel trains. However, was it not rather poor planning to ask for proposals with different types of vehicles that could be used when the majority of regional trains by nearly every manufacturer are illegal in Canada. What is going to happen if the winning bid after all of this chooses standard single level catenary EMUs and is accepted by Metrolinx and then Ottawa informs them that there will be NO exemptions for such a large RER system.........…….I can see the lawsuits from here. All of this would have been for naught because Metrolinx didn't want to bother to figure out which trains will be cool with Ottawa.
That's a hell of an assumption on your part, considering that they haven't even picked out a winning consortium to provide the service, nevermind the vehicle type. For all any of us know, it may Silverliner Vs - which are totally FRA-compliant (and thus can be made to be TC compliant reasonably easily).
Dan
[/QUOTE]
You are of course right, they could use a Siverliners or any of the monster cabins they have now on their diesel trains. However, was it not rather poor planning to ask for proposals with different types of vehicles that could be used when the majority of regional trains by nearly every manufacturer are illegal in Canada. What is going to happen if the winning bid after all of this chooses standard single level catenary EMUs and is accepted by Metrolinx and then Ottawa informs them that there will be NO exemptions for such a large RER system.........…….I can see the lawsuits from here. All of this would have been for naught because Metrolinx didn't want to bother to figure out which trains will be cool with Ottawa.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
The last sentence is the crux of the matter. You guys seem to think I have a problem with catenary EMUs which is categorically false. The only thing I hate about them is the visual pollution of the damn wires & poles which can Rosedale look like the slums of Calcutta. Outside of that, catenary is efficient, reliable, fast, zero emissions, has great de/acceleration, is quiet, comfortable, and has a whole plethora of suppliers. Investing in catenary would be a very good investment. Period.
The issue here is that the decision is NOT Metrolinx's but rather QP. QP is paying for it so they will do whatever they want. As Torontonians, you of all people on this planet know how transit decisions in the city have far more to do with politics than with expert opinion. Ford is going to be looking at an electrified system that is the cheapest to get up and running and the one that can be implemented the fastest, preferable with at least some of it up and running by the next election. The reality is that Hydrail doesn't require near as much initial infrastructure costs and can be implemented very quickly at least on some of the routes.
steveintoronto
Superstar
The concept has been poorly explained, albeit some posters intrinsically understand it. Hydrail (with fuel cell, not internal combustion hydrogen) is a battery powered drive with the battery replenished by the fuel cell. The battery acts as a reservoir, and the larger the capacity, all other technical factors being equal, the lower the 'source impedance'. I'm using an electronic terminology, electrical might be expressed slightly differently as 'internal resistance' or 'internal impedance'. It's the same phenomenon. Think a giant muscle, and the fuel cell is the stomach, slowly producing the sugars needed for the muscle to work. That muscle, other than for short spurts, is only as powerful as the energy factory (stomach to liver) that feeds it.
Now think catenary, built ruggedly with a very low source impedance. You could weld with the current available...all day, night and for a year. When demand is presented to that catenary source, the limitation isn't the source, but the vehicles motors and control themselves. THAT is what gets you accelerating fast, climbing very steep hills with no loss of velocity, and very effective motor braking and regenerative yield. The energy is dumped back into a source that appears as being close to a short circuit. (Source impedance approaching zero ohms) Recovery is very high, and engine braking very effective.
With electric traction, whether fuel cell, which is completely silent save for ancillary pumps. etc, or catenary, almost all of the 'noise' is from the wheels, rails etc. Some 'whine' from the 'choppers' is also created, but it's not as intrusive as heavy steel wheels on rails.
So why then dick around with Hydrogen or any other on-board fuel source when catenary is by far the best option? The only place it makes sense is in the boon-docks where the cost recovery ratio of electrifying is less than unity. I could go further with the physics, but point made I think.
The entire power cycle: Reformed Methane takes more energy to 'strip out' H than it releases. IIRC, the negative yield was about 2:1, energy in per yielded energy out.
Addendum:
Steam Methane Reforming
www.studentenergy.org
Not a very desirable system at all.
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crs1026
Superstar
Nitpick: An electric drive train has blowers which keep all the electricals cool. While electric transmission is more efficient than diesel, it still has a fair bit of energy loss as heat, hence the need for cooling. These blowers can be quite noisy, much more than the rail noise.
A lot depends on where the blowers are located. Diesel exhausts from the top of the unit, so the noise is hard to shield using sound walls, etc.... the walls aren’t high enough. Electrics vent their noise lower down in the carbody, so berms and sound walls can suppress more of it. So electrics “seem” to be quieter. But the traction motor blowers for an electric are identical to the blowers in a diesel and sound much the same.. Battery or hydrogen power creates just as many amps and just as much need for traction cooling. I would expect that noise envelope to be no different.
- Paul
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smallspy
Senior Member
If you can see the lawsuits, than perhaps you should take your rose-coloured glasses off. The regulations are no surprise to any of the bidders, and they will have their sets of assumptions that they can use until they get the go-ahead to proceed. Any questions about whether the units will or won't have to meet TC regulations won't be answered for some time.
And once again, you are assuming that the particular vehicle exists already. We have no idea at this point what will be running on the tracks in 2026. We don't know if it going to be based on some existing design or if it will be some bespoke design. So to say that the vehicles "....are illegal in Canada." is wrong because, again, we don't actually know yet what will be built.
Dan
steveintoronto
Superstar
I specifically mentioned "ancillary" needs in my post.
As to "Battery or hydrogen power creates just as many amps" as as available on catenary? Far from it. And I also mentioned the duty cycle of the source. Google for "source Impedance". Unless you want to drag a freight behind with banks of batteries, but I digress.
To be fair, I've worked developing transformers and associated equipment, having to design power supplies for massive amplifiers, and it took me a few of my younger years to actually mentally model the implications of "source impedance". In audio work, the term applied to a 'soft' supply (one with a higher source impedance) is 'sag'. It's probably used in the traction industry too, if a supply line isn't of sufficient ability to match a reasonable load demand placed on it.
Putting aside locomotion for a moment, consider the challenges with 'range' on battery powered cars. The greater the battery supply to combat short range, the lower the overall efficiency. You now have to drag that supply around. Catenary addresses much of that. Catenary or third rail to a lesser extent maximizes the thrust to weight ratio. You're not carrying the 'fuel' on-board, albeit system backup control batteries are carried on any vehicle.
And electric locos are much quieter, btw. The Metrolinx noise studies showing just a few dB lower levels are highly suspect by others' results. And it's not just the noise level, it's the type of noise, thus terms like 'white', 'pink' etc.
Children laughing can be very loud but a joy. The same measured sound pressure when crying is excruciating. Unless they're your own kids, but I digress...
And as to 'fans'...the latest electric locomotive methods of control and design have radically reduced thermal loss in motors and control equipment. That's where "chopping" comes in. The device is either fully on or off, two-state. The 'power' ( a measurement of which time is a factor) is metred by 'time division'. How long the device is on compared to off, switched at a sonic rate or higher, thus the whine from it. That's actually the motor stators turning thermal loss into sound. Resistive losses are drastically cut. And the need to cool motors so much is also reduced.
How noisy are the motor fans on the latest subway cars?
There's a myriad of technical studies on-line that I could link, but here's an example of apparent levels, and the expected results have improved even further since this was published:
Herald confirms our electric trains are quiet
Matt L | April 23, 2014 | 55 Comments
[...]
The differences in noise levels are substantial and it’s something I’ve noticed on the few times I’ve been lucky enough to have a trip on one of the EMUs. It’s quite telling also as I still remember a conversation with a one of the senior engineers involved in the project over a year ago. He told me that while they knew these trains would be quieter, they weren’t sure just how they would compare to a carriage in an SA set (the loco hauled ones) which are noisy if you’re in a carriage near the locomotive but can be quite as you move away from it. I’ve graphed the results the Herald recorded.
Note: This Note: chart has been updated to represent perceived loudness rather than simple decibels.
The vast improvement in the exterior noise is impressive and something that is bound to be a welcome relief for those that live, work or play alongside a rail line. In fact if the figures are right then the new trains are quieter on the outside than the existing trains are on the inside. I think it will hugely improve the viability of increased densities along the rail corridor. You can get a sense for how quiet they are from this video
[...]
Herald confirms our electric trains are quiet - Greater Auckland
The Herald yesterday ran a story on
www.greaterauckland.org.nz
See also:
/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2014/10/31/go_looks_at_a_quieter_ride_on_montreals_electric_commuter_train/ltm8.jpg)
GO looks at a quieter ride on Montreal’s electric commuter train
Mayor-elect John Tory and Metrolinx want to electrify the rails around Toronto. The Star took a ride on Canada’s only other electric commuter line bet...
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steveintoronto
Superstar
There's a number of vehicles running on federally regulated track in Canada that waivers were applied for and granted on a one-off basis. OCTranspo is a glaring example of that. So @ssiguy2 's claim is irrelevant as whoever is running an evaluation will also apply for and almost inevitably be granted a waiver. The FLIRTs look especially able to host such tests, as the test can just be in one 'power module' that is already highly flexible by design. If the test is a dud, a regular diesel module can be used, or the consist run without a pwr module at all, and used on catenary.
Exactly, and let's find out from others before we jump in blindly. In the meantime, we should build catenary, just like France and Germany (the hosts for Hydrail tests) continue to do at a rapid pace.
dowlingm
Senior Member
@steveintoronto which GO routes are suitable for the kind of operating conditions of temporal segregation that the O-Train operates with?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
My point is that logic dictates that Metrolinx and QP should have confirmed they could get an exemption BEFORE it went out to proposal.
steveintoronto
Superstar
UPX, and an extension of that to Bramalea. There's more, but that's a good start. The Unionville run would be another good one later, ostensibly done as a through run to Bramalea.
You do realize that any modern EMU of the type Metrolinx tout for RER would require a waiver? (Defined as an "exception" or "exemption" in Canadian regs) Discussed in detail in the ML Report on electrification from (8 years now?) ago. The one where they posted many different examples in other nations and projected on how we could have same.
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smallspy
Senior Member
And that's the problem, that point makes no sense. It's not up to Metrolinx to dictate to the bidder what kind of equipment to use, it's up to the bidder to figure it out for themselves.
The assumption is that the winning bidder - which will design, build and operate the equipment - will have to try and get approval for whatever equipment they wish to build and operate. The onus isn't on Metrolinx to do that, they are simply responsible for overseeing the process. The details are left to the bidders to decide.
There may very well be bidders that look at the process and say "this is do-able", and will offer equipment that is not strictly TC-compliant today, but with the intention of applying for the appropriate permissions and safety cases to allow for their use. And there may be others that say "that's insane, we're going to design a compliant vehicle" and eliminate all of the regulatory headaches in that way.
Dan
steveintoronto
Superstar
Copied from a post of mine in the Moose Rail string. This is how Ottawa got an exemption from TC regs (it helped that every federal department concerned was pulling for it)
urbantoronto.ca
First attachment above unfurled:
Note:
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/ttc/2002/12-04/ACS2002-TUP-TRN-0012.htm
Moose Rail (National Capital Region)
I don't know what definitions you have for heavy rail and light rail, but Canada is the only place I am aware of where these vehicles are considered light rail and this was only a regulatory move to get around the FRA crash-worthiness standards (and thus requires temporal separation from heavy...
First attachment above unfurled:
Note:
That's somewhat misleading as it applies to "The National Capital Region", and as such, under other Acts, federally regulated.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
www.fuelcellworks.com news states that the new Zillertal Austria hydrogen rail project is going ahead and will be fully implemented by 2022 and just received an award. There are 2 things that make this noteworthy. First it is the world's first narrow gauge hydrogen rail project and 2nc {and much more relevant to Toronto} is that the trains will be made by Stadler. This means in just 2 years the world will have gone from zero hydrogen train makers in 2017 to 3 of the biggest in the world by 2021. There goes the old proprietary technology excuse out the window as well as it just being a fad or one-off.
Whether Toronto goes with hydrogen or not, it is clear that hydrogen is the world's next major transportation revolution as cars and buses are also beginning to switch over. China wants 1 million hydrogen cars on the market by 2030 and Solaris just launched it's first hydrogen bus.
Whether Toronto goes with hydrogen or not, it is clear that hydrogen is the world's next major transportation revolution as cars and buses are also beginning to switch over. China wants 1 million hydrogen cars on the market by 2030 and Solaris just launched it's first hydrogen bus.
steveintoronto
Superstar
NO-ONE is this forum has totally dismissed the utility of a hydrail vehicle if the line doesn't justify the cost of electrifying!
Hydrail has been around for years, it's just new to you it seems. Austria's narrow gauge railways are remote and unconnected to the national catenary system. And the Zillertal news is a year old. You've just managed to find it now? The Zillertal? Mostly steam driven right now.
Meantime:
Global Overhead Catenary System Market 2018-2025 - Expansion of High-Speed Rail Network Generating the Need for Overhead Lines
/PRNewswire/ -- The "Overhead Catenary System Market by Catenary Wire (Simple, Stitched, Compound), Train (Metro, Light Rail, High-Speed Rail), Voltage,...
www.prnewswire.com
And Austria remains one of the world's pre-eminent suppliers.
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