cplchanb
Senior Member
Thats their biggest problem imo...always searching in vain for that elusive 100% or even 95% solution that will never come.
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
Thats their biggest problem imo...always searching in vain for that elusive 100% or even 95% solution that will never come.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Didn't the feds already announce that they were pumping money into GO's ReR.....the ReR that the province had previously said was fully funded?
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...frastructure-cash-for-go-transit-project.html
amnesiajune
Senior Member
Yes. The provincial government is moving $1.9 billion from its funding commitment to other (so far unspecified) transit projects.
Allandale25
Senior Member
If the Province did formally or informally study hydrogen, it's unfortunate the results aren't (as best I can tell) publicly available. Unless the research by that UOIT prof referenced in the 2007 article was published somewhere.
M636RF
New Member
From my understanding the Green Goat was a diesel-hybrid locomotive by design. BNSF converted one such unit to run fully on fuel cells, and it was used in service for a time. I haven't yet heard of any additional progress.
I did some further research on this topic and found that Alston expects to sell around 60 Hydrogen powered units to German operators in the next few years, so they must feel somewhat confident in the technology.
My own opinion is that GO should stick with electricity for higher capacity lines (as you mentioned it might not be practical to use hydrogen trains, or as I like to call them Hindenburg on rails, due to the amount of fuel required by a 12 car bi level set). Lighter, single-level multiple units could potentially use fuel cells though (I'm thinking about UPX style equipment, or perhaps proposed services to smaller places like Orangeville.
cplchanb
Senior Member
As promising as this new tech is, now is certainly not the time to delve around in unknown, unproven tech that is going to cost 4X as much as what is available now. Besides, apart from the overhead wire, electric trains are "clean" as it has been vs diesels for decades. The only dirty thing that it might have is where the source of power comes from, which really is a separate issue. They should build the network now and think about future tech later.
junctionist
Senior Member
It's like electrification is this scary undertaking that the province tries to avoid at all costs, even though they've been willing to spend similar money on new highway corridors and significant freeway widening projects in recent decades.
steveintoronto
Superstar
On the Green Goats: They got considerably further than just a few prototypes, but were CNG (LNG), not Hydrogen as I had inferred.
Interesting comparison here for Methane v. Hydrogen:
https://www.quora.com/Fuels-Which-is-the-best-future-energy-carrier-hydrogen-or-methane
I was thinking about the "UPX" Nippon Sharyos, and the original absurd plan to electrify them eventually to run on 25kVAC catenary. (Remember that plan? All the drawings and text have disappeared from on-line).
If QP was serious about investigating Hydrogen-cell electric vehicles, I can't think of a better route than Orangeville to test it on.
Some review:
https://www.thestar.com/business/2016/12/27/from-water-to-hydrogen-to-zero-emission-transport.html
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...coradia-ilint-first-successful-run-at-80-kmh/Alstom’s hydrogen train Coradia iLint first successful run at 80 km/h
14/03/2017
Alstom today successfully performed the first test run at 80 km/h of the world’s only fuel cell passenger train Coradia iLint on its own test track in Salzgitter, Lower Saxony (Germany). An extensive test campaign will be conducted in Germany and Czech Republic in the coming months before the Coradia iLint performs its first passenger test runs on the Buxtehude–Bremervörde–Bremerhaven–Cuxhaven (Germany) route beginning of 2018.
The four-week test runs currently undergoing in Salzgitter aim at confirming the stability of the energy supply system based on coordinated interaction between the drive, the fuel cell and the battery of the vehicle. The braking power is also being tested to check the interface between the pneumatic and the electric brake.
The Coradia iLint is the first low floor passenger train worldwide powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, which produces electrical power for the traction. This zero-emission train is silent and only emits steam and condensed water. Coradia iLint is special for its combination of different innovative elements: a clean energy conversion, flexible energy storage in batteries, and a smart management of the traction power and available energy. Based on Alstom’s flagship Coradia Lint diesel train, Coradia iLint is particularly suited for operation on non-electrified networks. It enables sustainable train operation while maintaining high train performance.
“This test run is a significant milestone in environmental protection and technical innovation. With the Coradia iLint and its fuel cell technology, Alstom is the first railway manufacturer to offer a zero-emission alternative for mass transit trains. Today our new traction system, so far successfully proved on the test ring, is used on a train for the first time – a major step towards cleaner mobility in Europe“, said Didier Pfleger, Vice President of Alstom Germany and Austria.
The dynamic tests are performed at Salzgitter plant at 80 km/h and in Velim (Czech Republic) at up to 140 km/h, the maximum speed of the Coradia iLint. For the purpose of the tests, a mobile filling station has been erected in Salzgitter to pump gaseous hydrogen into the pressure tank of the Coradia iLint. The hydrogen used for the test runs is the by-product of an industrial process, which is reasonably reused as a waste product. In the long term, Alstom aims to support the hydrogen production from wind energy.
The vehicle has already successfully completed the static commissioning process. All electrical and pneumatic functions of the trains have been tested and verified at standstill. TÜV Süd has certified the safety of the battery, the pressure tank system and the fuel cell for the coming test phases.
The Coradia iLint was designed by Alstom teams in Germany at Salzgitter’s site, centre of excellence for regional trains and in France notably in Tarbes, centre of excellence for traction systems and Ornans for the motors. This project benefits from the support of the German ministry of Transport and Digital infrastructure. Alstom has already signed letters of intent for 60 trains with the German states of Lower Saxony, North Rhine-Westphalia, Baden-Württemberg and the Hessian transport association ‘Rhein-Main-Verkehrsverbund’.
crs1026
Superstar
The idea that Ontario is going to be the testbed for another new technology is really appalling. Buy what works and let someone else work out the bugs. Only buy it after it has been proven.
- Paul
- Paul
steveintoronto
Superstar
And this is where all of our sixth senses are tingling! This is being presented as...Look! Squirrel! It's to allay attention to the real issue, the already late and lagging electrification.
On an up note though, and if QP were really serious, they'd be presenting fuel-cell electric for lines that are problematic to electrify, for whatever reason, not least cost.
And the recent tie-up with Asltom for the LRVs offers a way to test a single train (two vehicles back-to-back, so as to be double headed) close to where Alstom's assembly plant is to be ostensibly in Mississauga, so when the test vehicle has the inevitable hiccup, qualified personnel are available to service it and in their own facility, which makes the Orangeville line even more apt to test this on.
And further to that: Alstom, IIRC, and/or other competitors, offer a self-powered module option (typically this has been diesel) to run LRVs without catenary or third rail on many of their LRV models, and some mainline trains.
One of the Spirit trainsets, that ML already have on order, could have a 'hydrogen fuel-cell module' sandwiched in the consist to provide the 750vDC to drive the consist in lieu of catenary. Experiment a total disaster? Only the power module section is a loss, the rest of the consist can continue in service with the others of the fleet. Nothing lost!
Who should 'own' this experiment? Probably Alstom themselves, with the help and assistance of ML and a grant for operating expenses from the Transport Min. ML would provide the basic platforms at stops.
But of course, it's not been presented this way. And one wonders "why not?"
If this experiment proves successful (and there's every reason to believe it will be) it adds much further credence to ML placing the order for the Spirits to begin with.
Even if the H fuel cell module doesn't cut it, other modules can be tried, the worst being diesel which in the big scheme of things, if it meets Tier IV, matches the best scenario at present anyway. Something not mentioned, at least in the promo releases from ML, is the need still for battery storage on board for peak torque demand. The fuel-cell will work best in a two-state mode: On or off. It will only need to come on when the batteries deplete, unless so underpowered as to have to run continuously, which would be a design failure.
Edit to Add: I'll find a better example later, but here's Stadler's "power module" in practice:
[...]
The basic concept is rather unconventional: the car is driven by a central “power module”, also known as a “powerpack” or a “drive container”, powered on both axles. Two light end modules, each with a bogie, rest on the power module, which produces useful traction weight on the driving axles. The end modules also use the space very effectively, although the railcar is divided into two halves by the power module. Some units have a path through the drive container. The end modules can be delivered with standard pulling devices or buffer gears, or with central buffer couplings. They are built with a low-platform design except above the bogies and at the supported ends (more than 65% low-platform). All of the usual comforts to be expected in a modern local network railcar are provided, such as air conditioning, a multi-purpose room, vacuum toilets (in a washroom suitable for the disabled) and a passenger information system. The GTWs can be diesel or electric-powered (via overhead wires or third rail).
[...]
Propulsion
There are diesel propulsion modules with 550 kW (since 2003) with 2×375 = 750 kW power available, and electric propulsion modules with 600 kW to 1,100 kW. All drive modules work with IGBT pulse inverters. The converter plant stems from ABB and Turgi manufactured at the site.
By inserting a middle car (also with only one bogie) on one side of the propulsion module, the GTW 2/6 is expanded to GTW 2/8. Instead of the middle car, another drive module can also be inserted. Between the two modules are then either a trailer passenger car (GTW 4/8) or two medium cars and partitions (GTW 4/12). For operational flexibility up to four GTWs of the same pattern can be operated as a multiple unit.
North American application
New Jersey Transit uses 20 GTW diesel light rail vehicles on the 34 mile River LINE (New Jersey Transit) service between Trenton and Camden. The diesel LRV offers a tighter turning radius than typical main line light rail vehicles (i.e. Siemens Desiro, Bombardier Talent, etc.) and thus is capable of street running. The basic GTW is the 2/6 which indicates that two of the six axles are powered. The vehicle is more than 65% low floor. The GTW is available in electric and diesel-electric versions. 390 units have been sold to date and are in use in Italy, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. The Austin, Texas Capital Metro is expecting delivery of six vehicles in the fall of 2007 for its new transit rail service. In Texas, the diesel-electric units will provide service on a 32 mile route between Austin and Leander starting in January 2008.
The River LINE in New Jersey was opened in May 2004. The service is operated by the Southern New Jersey Rail Group (SNJRG), a consortium of Bechtel Group and Bombardier. The 20 stations on the line include PATCO Speedline’s Broadway Station, which allows for transfers to service to Philadelphia. The River LINE uses a proof of payment system with a flat fare of $1.35. Service is offered on a 15 minute peak headway and 30 minute off peak headway. Much of the line is single track with passing sidings.
https://railforthevalley.wordpress....er-gtw-a-new-generation-of-diesel-light-rail/
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
This idea to being open to new technologies s absurd..........next thing you know some idiot is going to try to create power to run trains and cars from braking wheels. Remember 110 years ago, the idea of running a transit vehicle on wheels as opposed to on track was considered ridiculous.
This technology is going to be tested big time in Germany in the next couple of years and Denmark, Netherlands, UK, and France are also studying it's options. We will be able to see if these vehicles and system work great or are lemons but in the meantime why not study it so you can make an informed decision as opposed to one based on people not willing to try new technologies or conversely those that can't see past media hype? It's not like electrification has even started and what if HyRail turns out to be an incredible success and 10 years from now Metrolinx could be be banging it's head against the wall thinking of all the money and time they blew on electrifying the system. I bet Alstrom would be delighted in loaning a train for a year to Metrolinx, knowing that if everything works out well they could be the beneficiary of a massive contract and get a foot in the door in NA at NA's 2nd largest transit agency. Run it on an off-peak line and see how it performs.
I have absolutely NO idea how these hydrogen trains compare in efficiency, de/acceleration, or reliability but isn't it worth finding out?
This technology is going to be tested big time in Germany in the next couple of years and Denmark, Netherlands, UK, and France are also studying it's options. We will be able to see if these vehicles and system work great or are lemons but in the meantime why not study it so you can make an informed decision as opposed to one based on people not willing to try new technologies or conversely those that can't see past media hype? It's not like electrification has even started and what if HyRail turns out to be an incredible success and 10 years from now Metrolinx could be be banging it's head against the wall thinking of all the money and time they blew on electrifying the system. I bet Alstrom would be delighted in loaning a train for a year to Metrolinx, knowing that if everything works out well they could be the beneficiary of a massive contract and get a foot in the door in NA at NA's 2nd largest transit agency. Run it on an off-peak line and see how it performs.
I have absolutely NO idea how these hydrogen trains compare in efficiency, de/acceleration, or reliability but isn't it worth finding out?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
And what if it doesn't? Are we going to wait a decade to gather the long-term data before making a move on a tech that at best, make how much of a difference when we already have a technology that is demonstrated in multiple jurisdictions for decades?
AoD
AoD
steveintoronto
Superstar
Having trouble following your logic there. Can you rephrase that? Let me project a parallel logic, no matter the direction of your comment:
There's a *marked* demand for off-catenary LRVs running on what engineers would call "an auxiliary source" of power. Trolley buses have done this for generations, Hamilton had it, SF still does. It allows a *clean, proven, inexpensive* mode of propulsion to reach further where catenary is problematic.
Except instead of diesel being the 'auxiliary, ancillary, secondary' source of propulsion, fuel cells do it cleaner and even better, far less moving parts (none in fact, other than gas movement and gates). Perhaps the concept is a bit too abstract for many? Again, the Province is not explaining this.
Perhaps we should revisit the term "Hybrid Propulsion"? (And "range anxiety")
Example:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4751.shtml
The very same engineering approach can be taken, and is now being taken, with fuel cell (mostly Hydrogen) powering electric LRVs.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
It should be noted that the major rail lines in Germany are electrified. Now they may be interested in using H fuel-cell trains on the secondary lines, where the cost of installing the catenary and substations may not be justified by the usage level.
Here in GTA, we are starting with the highest usage lines, where the fixed cost of catenary and substations should be divided by the high number of trains. Thus, our case for using wires should be stronger.
On the less used lines, and especially on the long-haul routes, the economics may be different and the H fuel-cell trains might come as winners. But there is no good case for starting any work on the less used routes first, and by the time we get our hands on those routes, practucal data on the performance of H trains will become available.
Here in GTA, we are starting with the highest usage lines, where the fixed cost of catenary and substations should be divided by the high number of trains. Thus, our case for using wires should be stronger.
On the less used lines, and especially on the long-haul routes, the economics may be different and the H fuel-cell trains might come as winners. But there is no good case for starting any work on the less used routes first, and by the time we get our hands on those routes, practucal data on the performance of H trains will become available.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
It was only 25 years ago that the first "tram-train" began operation in Germany where the idea of having a vehicle that could run on both standard gauge and streetcar track was considered absurd. Turns out it was an incredible success and systems are popping up all over Europe and dozens of new systems are now up and running and planned.
What's the issue with giving one vehicle the chance to prove itself. If it doesn't work well then no harm done. All they need is one hydrogen fueling station and if it doesn't work well, the public could use it for their cars or transit agencies for their buses.
Alstom would probably be exstatic at the idea of loaning Metrolinx a vehicle and if successful, Ontario could be the home-base of a new Alstom hydrogen vehicle centre for NA creating a huge new sector for the province.
What's the issue with giving one vehicle the chance to prove itself. If it doesn't work well then no harm done. All they need is one hydrogen fueling station and if it doesn't work well, the public could use it for their cars or transit agencies for their buses.
Alstom would probably be exstatic at the idea of loaning Metrolinx a vehicle and if successful, Ontario could be the home-base of a new Alstom hydrogen vehicle centre for NA creating a huge new sector for the province.