GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[jcam]

They absolutely could, but it's not electrification that is bringing better service. They need to finish double tracking and quad tracking corridors, upgrading level crossings, creating grade separations, expanding stations, and many other small infrastructure improvements before they can increase service levels. At that point new trainsets and electrification will make sense.

There has already been evidence posted of new infrastructure being built to support poles being added in the future. But why add they if you aren't going to use them for 5 years.

If I'm not mistaken, I think the electrification also requires some lowering of track at some underpasses to give catenary clearance. I seem to recall a published document that noted all the adjustments that would have to be made on Kitchener, as an example.

 

[crs1026]

While waiting for the train at Downsview Park today, I spotted this mysteriously elaborate grounding on a section of chain link fence. The only explanation for this that I could imagine is that it’s a trial or future proofed installation with electrification in mind.
None of the many shelters, light standards, or platform appurtenances were grounded in this way, and there were no overhead wires in the area. So I discounted the possibility that it was lighting protection or a code requirement due to particular exposures in that spot. I have to think that it’s a test. But it gives a hint of just how much work is requires to electrify a line, beyond just setting poles and stringing wires.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

To suggest this is to be entirely ignorant of the realities of the construction world.

Indeed. Look at the Great Western mainline in the UK. The announcement in 2009 was £1 billion with work starting in 2010, with the 2013 estimate being only £874 million. Work was finally completed last year (9 years of construction) for £2.8 billion but the scope was significantly cut back, ending in Cardiff instead of Swansea, and cancelling branches to Oxford, and other smaller branches.

The length is similar - 208 km from Paddington to Cardiff Central.

 

[ssiguy2]

^^^^ All the more reason to go catenary/battery hybrid. It requires far less time to build making cost estimates far more reliable and vastly cheaper. It would also result in easy expansion of the system with no new infrastructure required. Added to this is the bonus of being able to find the skilled workers to build the project as the amount of labour to do so would be dramatically lower.

The longer the delay the more chance that it will be a somewhat battery based system.as ML has a stellar {and well deserved} reputation of bringing in it's projects late and over budget.

 

[afransen]

I'm curious..............Who of you think that ML will go with a battery train system with catenary recharging at each station or a core area of 100km and how many think they will go with 100% catenary?

They're conservative. I expect 100% catenary.

 

[tsm1072]

All the more reason to go catenary/battery hybrid. It requires far less time to build making cost estimates far more reliable and vastly cheaper. It would also result in easy expansion of the system with no new infrastructure required. Added to this is the bonus of being able to find the skilled workers to build the project as the amount of labour to do so would be dramatically lower.

I'd love to see evidence of this. Are there commuter train systems running today with this kind of system? 100% catenary on main lines is definitely much more energy-efficient, especially if they are going to be running 15-minute or faster frequencies.

 

[Rainforest]

I'd love to see evidence of this. Are there commuter train systems running today with this kind of system? 100% catenary on main lines is definitely much more energy-efficient, especially if they are going to be running 15-minute or faster frequencies.

Catenary is best for the frequent / trunk sections, but having some battery trains will add the flexibility to serve branches. A dual catenary-battery train can self-charge while it serves the section that has catenary, then use the battery power to serve the branch.

 

[ARG1]

Catenary is best for the frequent / trunk sections, but having some battery trains will add the flexibility to serve branches. A dual catenary-battery train can self-charge while it serves the section that has catenary, then use the battery power to serve the branch.

Sure, but there really aren't any sections on the GO network where this applies. The closest I can think of is maybe Hamilton GO, and depends on how its build, the Guelph-Cambridge Line? Long term I guess we could transition to battery trains to serve the outer sections of lines where Freight companies own the tracks, but we still have a bunch of Diesel Trains that are still quite new and fresh, where pushing forward early obsolesce for the sake of "fully electrifying the network" seems silly.

 

[Rainforest]

Sure, but there really aren't any sections on the GO network where this applies. The closest I can think of is maybe Hamilton GO, and depends on how its build, the Guelph-Cambridge Line? Long term I guess we could transition to battery trains to serve the outer sections of lines where Freight companies own the tracks, but we still have a bunch of Diesel Trains that are still quite new and fresh, where pushing forward early obsolesce for the sake of "fully electrifying the network" seems silly.

Indeed, I wouldn't suggest retiring the diesel trains sooner than they approach their scheduled EOL.

And indeed, not that many suitable branches, but quite a few outer-end sections that may not be equipped with catenary in Phase 1, either because of the CN / CP objections or just because of the cost. In such cases, dual-power trains can help. Catenary to Bramalea, then using battery to Kitchener. Catenary to Markham Stn, then using battery to Lincolnville. Catenary to Langstaff, then using battery to Bloomington. And, of course the Hamilton GO as you mentioned.

 

[ssiguy2]

Battery trains also have the advantage of being able to continue their route if there is a power outage or a problem with a specific area of the catenary wiring especially during bad weather caused by such things as ice or wind. This is a draw back of wiring..............it's not as reliable when people rely on it the most. It is true that catenary is slightly more efficient than battery but remember that the batteries can be fully charged overnight when power is vastly cheaper.

Battery trains are not an all of nothing technology. You can have 100% battery or just 10% and every where in between. I think, at a minimum, the trains should be at least 25% allowing for easy expansion, security in weather, no bridge reworking for catenary clearance, less work and labour costs, and less construction material.

Effectively even a limited battery system is like carrying an extra 10 litres of gas in your trunk. You will never need it until, of course, you do and then your damn glad you did.

 

[tsm1072]

It is true that catenary is slightly more efficient than battery but remember that the batteries can be fully charged overnight when power is vastly cheaper.

The issue is carrying around the extra weight of batteries requires more power on acceleration and extra wear on brakes at every stop. Batteries probably make sense in areas that you can't put up catenary, but only if you can justify the extra expense of maintenance and energy use for carrying around that extra weight at all the times you aren't using the batteries. There is an economical cross-over point, I don't know where it is, but holding that weight for the "just-in-case" scenario likely isn't worth it.
You don't battery back up all the lights in your house to cover you in the event of a power outage, but you do have a flashlight in the drawer ready to go. For GO, that flashlight may just be a diesel loco that they can deploy to fetch stranded trains.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Can't the substations along the line be equipped with batteries to supplement interruptions to the electrical system.

This would have the benefit of being able to charge the batteries during off peak times.

 

[ssiguy2]

True the batteries are an extra weight to haul around but conversely those batteries can be fully charged overnight when hydro rates are vastly cheaper as opposed to catenary that buys most of it's electricity at peak times and hence at the highest price. Battery trains also have the advantage of being able to regeneratively recharge during braking which is effectively free power.

 

[kEiThZ]

Can't the substations along the line be equipped with batteries to supplement interruptions to the electrical system.

This would have the benefit of being able to charge the batteries during off peak times.

This is exactly what should be done. If load smoothing is required on the trains, put on a bank of supercapacitors. That is all that should be needed onboard.

Battery capacity should be limited entirely to what is necessary for non-electrified portions. And that really needs to be minimized.

 

[ssiguy2]

Mercer Rail which is the suburban rail network of Greater Liverpool, has just completed their trial of battery trains and they stated that they exceeded all their expectations. The transit provider wants to completely de-carbonize their system but didn't have the money to put up catenary in all the served areas that now rely on DMUs. They now intend to implement the trains for all non-electrified parts of the suburban system. London has begun testing battery trains on some of it's DMU routes.

The great thing about the Liverpool system is that did not have to buy/borrow any new trains for the tests as they were all converted DMU units. They said that even 10 years ago battery trains would have been problematic not in terms of the technology {as it has been around for more than a century} but rather it's practicality but battery technology has advanced so far and so quickly with lighter batteries, longer lives, more distance, and fast recharging that now they are considered the preferred option.

They also said that one the very short extensions to 1 or 2 stations, they will require absolutely extra power or drain on the batteries due to regenerative braking recharging the batteries as they go along.