Bordercollie
Senior Member
If you think of the cost to salt a surface area equivalent to a 12 car train it might be cheaper to install the ice melting. Salt, labor, and damage to surfaces over time and the upkeep.
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GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Northern Light
Superstar
Ok....I don't want to get too much further into the weeds on Pickering GO Station.............but.......I couldn't resist looking to see if the parking lot was on Streetview, it is..........but only from August 2018.
So I have to make two observations right off the bat...........here's a picture:
Yes, that is road salt, in August, that is well and truly nuts. But it also tells me something.............if water were flowing over this spot it would have washed away or spread out at least.............
Which got me looking........parking lots are supposed to be graded so that they drain any surface water from rain or melted snow, usually into a stormwater drain, but sometimes into a swale or a permeable area of parking lot that can absorb the water.
Grading is typically too hard to see w/the naked eye, in pictures, but the salt tells a partial tale, its obvious that water reaches this spot via grading, but can't escape. That, of course is a recipe for guaranteed ice in winter and to cause excess salt usage to combat it.
Aha, an overhead view reveals where our drains are:
So, in the image above, the drains are primarily located in the main E-W driving aisle, with some secondary ones against the island adjacent to the entry driveway and the bus loop area. They appear as 2 black squares, side by side, not to be confused with the tops of the light standards.
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Look closely at that image.....can you see it? There are light white stains in various areas of the parking lot which indicate salt accumulation and staining. You can see it next to the curb by the hydro sub station
Ha, I can see this particular problem really clearly now, at-grade.....
There are depressions from the front wheels of the vehicles that park here which are causing water and salt to accumulate. There is both a design fix for this, and is easily correctable with a quick mill and pave job.
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Man this parking lot is terrible from an ecological perspective, even as parking lots go.
One virtually unending expanse of pavement, with nearly zero trees, the pavement fully exposed to solar heating and therefore contributing to the urban heat island effect. ......
So I have to make two observations right off the bat...........here's a picture:
Yes, that is road salt, in August, that is well and truly nuts. But it also tells me something.............if water were flowing over this spot it would have washed away or spread out at least.............
Which got me looking........parking lots are supposed to be graded so that they drain any surface water from rain or melted snow, usually into a stormwater drain, but sometimes into a swale or a permeable area of parking lot that can absorb the water.
Grading is typically too hard to see w/the naked eye, in pictures, but the salt tells a partial tale, its obvious that water reaches this spot via grading, but can't escape. That, of course is a recipe for guaranteed ice in winter and to cause excess salt usage to combat it.
Aha, an overhead view reveals where our drains are:
So, in the image above, the drains are primarily located in the main E-W driving aisle, with some secondary ones against the island adjacent to the entry driveway and the bus loop area. They appear as 2 black squares, side by side, not to be confused with the tops of the light standards.
***
Look closely at that image.....can you see it? There are light white stains in various areas of the parking lot which indicate salt accumulation and staining. You can see it next to the curb by the hydro sub station
Ha, I can see this particular problem really clearly now, at-grade.....
There are depressions from the front wheels of the vehicles that park here which are causing water and salt to accumulate. There is both a design fix for this, and is easily correctable with a quick mill and pave job.
***
Man this parking lot is terrible from an ecological perspective, even as parking lots go.
One virtually unending expanse of pavement, with nearly zero trees, the pavement fully exposed to solar heating and therefore contributing to the urban heat island effect. ......
Attachments
Bordercollie
Senior Member
For parking lots I think it's fine because the truck sprays the salt. The issue is more for walkways and platforms. They use shovels and you can see the salt in the summer time because there is so much of it.
KevinT
Active Member
I wonder if adding brine sprayers, like they do on highway overpasses prone to freezing, would be both cheaper than a heating system and cheaper than salt + labour + additional maintenance. Perhaps if somebody commissioned a government study...
APTA-2048
Senior Member
That, plus a five storey parking garage, a parking lot further east, and a shared parking garage with the building north of the 401.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
Brine works with Ice or snow to a certain extent. But it doesn't eliminate the chance of it accumulating.I wonder if adding brine sprayers, like they do on highway overpasses prone to freezing, would be both cheaper than a heating system and cheaper than salt + labour + additional maintenance. Perhaps if somebody commissioned a government study...
So in the end you still need salt. They have salt alternatives but at 3x the price.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Environmental Project Report is now available for the Heritage Road Layover.
Project page a full report: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/heritage-road-layover-EPR
Project page a full report: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/heritage-road-layover-EPR
Allandale25
Senior Member
First Nations group warns of possible GO train delays from environmental assessments
The Haudenosaunee nations plan environmental assessments starting Sept. 20 on the Hamilton to Toronto GO line.
www.thestar.com
Northern Light
Superstar
First Nations group warns of possible GO train delays from environmental assessments
The Haudenosaunee nations plan environmental assessments starting Sept. 20 on the Hamilton to Toronto GO line.
Perhaps the article author made mistakes or omissions, but it leaves the impression of a bad take on the part of this group.
They are seeking some sort of compensation from Mx in regards to rail lines that already exist (LSW) which don't abut any reservation or owned lands of Six Nations.
They also, supposedly wish to conduct what amounts to an EA on already existing rail operations.
Even if one accepted that the rail lines of LSW were somehow covered by original treaties applicable to Six Nations that would need to be redressed through government, more broadly, not a transit agency.
Most of the track in question, it should be said, belongs to CN still (as it is west of the Oakville Sub junction) odd that they don't see fit to mention CN then.
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From the article:
The Haudenosaunee Development Institute, which represents the Haudenosaunee nations living in southern Ontario, said beginning Sept. 20 it is planning to conduct its own environmental assessments to understand “how Metrolinx operations are impacting recognized treaty rights.”
While the group says it is not looking for a confrontation, it recognizes that the assessments “will necessarily cause delays to Metrolinx services,” which it hopes to minimize. Assessments will start on the GO train line from Toronto to Hamilton.
The institute said Metrolinx, the provincial agency that oversees GO transit, and the province failed to obtain consent to build rail lines through its territories. Metrolinx is refusing to fund negotiations with First Nations about current and future rail lines on their lands, making “any negotiation or discussion impossible.”
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The Haudenosaunee said that Metrolinx has provided funding for monitors representing the nations to supervise environmental assessments the transit agency is already undertaking on specific projects. But what the First Nations group is looking for is support for a broader conversation about how Metrolinx is using Haudenosaunee land.
The Haudenosaunee consider Toronto, Hamilton and other parts of Southwestern Ontario to be traditional territories, governed by the Haldimand Tract and the 1701 Nanfan Treaty.
“Metrolinx is using treaty lands, and there’s no benefit flowing to the holder of the treaty rights,” said Aaron Detlor, spokesperson for the Haudenosaunee Development Institute. He said his group wants to discuss with Metrolinx how the Haudenosaunee could benefit from its operations — for example, by asking the transit agency to build transportation infrastructure to the Six Nations of the Grand River reserve.
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The article goes on to quote the above group mentioning discussion of 'shares', 'revenues', 'jobs' and providing transit to Six Nations..........
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crs1026
Superstar
ML’s biggest enemy in this is themselves, in that their tendency is to take a legalistic, technocratic, and we-are-ML-and-always-right attitude towards anything that gets in their way. They are being tempted to take a hard position in a landscape where there is huge potential for the other party to position themselves as the more reasonable one.
I’m no expert in the intricacies of the Haldimand and Nanfan treaties, but both can be read as arguably granting the Six Nations far more benefit than they have actually received over the past 200 years.
There is also the potential for provincial and federal government positions to diverge if one jurisdiction takes an entrenched position. GO expansion sits in both federal and provincial jurisdictions, so drags both into the mix.
Why ML and not CN? Because this is about political and legal leverage. It’s not a situation where anyone will want to rush to the courts, even if a decision is needed, because that strategy can be portrayed as being confrontational. GO expansion is possibly seen as a soft spot to start a challenge that can then be applied elsewhere.
The dynamics may be exactly why Ottawa is going so slow with HFR planning, applying a three-year “consultation” window.
I’m reading this as a negotiating matter, not a railway building matter….. the actual impacts of GO on the Six Nations are pretty benign, but the potential for advancing other interests is substantial. ML is being invited to a negotiation that it would be wise not to avoid.
i
- Paul
I’m no expert in the intricacies of the Haldimand and Nanfan treaties, but both can be read as arguably granting the Six Nations far more benefit than they have actually received over the past 200 years.
There is also the potential for provincial and federal government positions to diverge if one jurisdiction takes an entrenched position. GO expansion sits in both federal and provincial jurisdictions, so drags both into the mix.
Why ML and not CN? Because this is about political and legal leverage. It’s not a situation where anyone will want to rush to the courts, even if a decision is needed, because that strategy can be portrayed as being confrontational. GO expansion is possibly seen as a soft spot to start a challenge that can then be applied elsewhere.
The dynamics may be exactly why Ottawa is going so slow with HFR planning, applying a three-year “consultation” window.
I’m reading this as a negotiating matter, not a railway building matter….. the actual impacts of GO on the Six Nations are pretty benign, but the potential for advancing other interests is substantial. ML is being invited to a negotiation that it would be wise not to avoid.
i
- Paul
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
I agree that this is the Haudenosaunee overreaching here, and there is a reason Metrolinx has not extended an olive branch to them on this.
The Haudenosaunee have to walk a very fine line, they have been raising a stink over environmental remediation occurring in Hamilton too, and this is of course on top of the subdivision occupation in Caledonia last year which was in itself a massive overreach, despite it being based on a much more real treaty dispute.
It certainly comes off as a shake down of Metrolinx / the Province, even if the particulars are perhaps slightly more complicated.
If the Haudenosaunee are going to start claiming compensation on treaty lands, even those with well established treaties, that gives them a right for extensive input and / or compensation on essentially every major construction project in the GTA. It just doesn't pass a reasonable "sniff test".
The Haudenosaunee have to walk a very fine line, they have been raising a stink over environmental remediation occurring in Hamilton too, and this is of course on top of the subdivision occupation in Caledonia last year which was in itself a massive overreach, despite it being based on a much more real treaty dispute.
It certainly comes off as a shake down of Metrolinx / the Province, even if the particulars are perhaps slightly more complicated.
If the Haudenosaunee are going to start claiming compensation on treaty lands, even those with well established treaties, that gives them a right for extensive input and / or compensation on essentially every major construction project in the GTA. It just doesn't pass a reasonable "sniff test".
crs1026
Superstar
This is most likely the bargaining objective. Bargaining objectives usually don't end with that result... but if you don't start high, you have nowhere to give ground when your adversary starts low. And, there is always posturing before a negotiation.
And after the last two hundred years of colonial overreach, one person's "shakedown" is another's "strategic exploration of an opportunity", I suppose.
- Paul
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Kitsune
Senior Member
... if there are documents .. no matter how old ... that declare haudensaunee lands .. and the province built stuff on without there approval, then yes they are entitled to compensation. This is not a metrolinx issue ... its a Province issue. This exact same issue has come up on highway 69 and the government there is also balking at the thought of paying for existing use through treaty land. If the province / metrolinx want to expand the go corridor it is completely normal process in Western Canada to pay for the first nation side of the environment assessment - and its also within the haudensaunee rights to block expansion. It would not be the first time a reserve did this .. go look at the long history of the Tsuut′ina Trail portion of Calgary's ring road.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
There are indeed treaties - which from my understanding give pretty clear direction that the Haudenosaunee (or really, the Mississaugas of the New Credit) forfeited lands in the GTA to the Crown.
The reserve and lands along the Grand River are generally a bit more disputed, as the treaty isn't as clear (the reserve as originally defined in the initial treaties was land on both sides of the Grand River for most of it's length, later shrunk down to just Six Nations), but the treaties covering the GTA are not that disputed. Or at least, this is the first time I've heard of an indigenous group disputing title holding on the lands.
I think (i may be wrong) that the Haudenosaunee are claiming here that the lands are their "traditional territories" and they have a right to compensation based on that, regardless of what a treaty from the 18th century might say. And that's the overreach. They have a right to consultation and oversight on the matter, as Metrolinx has done, but not to compensation.
Highway 69 is a distinctly different issue as it actually runs through a current day indigenous reserve. Same thing with the Calgary Ring Road, it runs directly beside the Tsuut′ina reserve. It's not running solely on ceded territory like Metrolinx's Lakeshore West line.
The problem lies in this quote:
The problem is that Lakeshore West does not run through Indigenous lands or their territories. It runs through their traditional territories, but those are covered by those old treaties from the late 18th century and early 19th century showing the lands being ceded to the crown. The last known disputes on the Toronto purchase were settled in 2010:
Toronto Purchase - Wikipedia
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crs1026
Superstar
True, but the dispute over the Toronto Purchase for instance was settled for a pretty hefty sum, rather than changing either the development of the affected territory or the Treaty itself.
It does raise questions about why, for instance, there is no similar objection to the EA for the new CN facility in Milton. GO is simply an easier target because there is political visibility and ML is under pressure to get things built quickly.
I expect this argument will emerge in many more places. GO is just a convenient and strategic place to advance the argument. Where the argument lands is probably more important than how GO builds transit.
- Paul