General railway discussions

[ShonTron]

CPKC's mainline doesn't go to Halifax. So if you're a CPKC customer, it's either Montreal or Saint John.

Yes, I know that. But that CP route has gone to shit since the 1990s. It’s not nearly at the quality of the CN route to Halifax.

 

[Bojaxs]

Yes, I know that. But that CP route has gone to shit since the 1990s. It’s not nearly at the quality of the CN route to Halifax.

CPKC didn't regain access to the port of Saint John until June 2020. So they've probably only recently started looking at their tracks in Maine and southern Quebec.

 

[crs1026]

Some comparative stats from www.freightos.com. Saint John appears to move a lot of bulk cargo, but its container business is much smaller than Halifax or Montreal. I wonder how much more business it could actually handle without further investment.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

This article from January suggests that the Halifax container terminal has some capacity issues, it seems more on the rail side than the maritime side.

Halifax Terminal Operations Overwhelmed Amid Surge in Container Volumes and Adverse Conditions

Since October 2024, the Port of Halifax has faced a series of challenges that have disrupted terminal operations and extended dwell times for cargo: Key Chal

www.primefreight.com

 

[micheal_can]

Another factor to consider is congestion ('dwell times'). Both rail and maritime, but a container ship waiting at anchor is losing a lot of money. I couldn't find a comprehensive table but I read that Saint John is running at about 50% capacity which would assume a quick turnaround.

That means we could invest in needed infrastructure to raise the capacity.

This article from January suggests that the Halifax container terminal has some capacity issues, it seems more on the rail side than the maritime side.

Halifax Terminal Operations Overwhelmed Amid Surge in Container Volumes and Adverse Conditions

Since October 2024, the Port of Halifax has faced a series of challenges that have disrupted terminal operations and extended dwell times for cargo: Key Chal

www.primefreight.com

That is why they took out the wye.

Is the Port of Saint John ice free year round? I know Halifax is. Montreal is not.

 

[Sauga89]

That’s one reason why ports like Philadelphia and Baltimore remain competitive even when Norfolk/Newport News is a shorter distance for ships from Europe. They also have different rail and road links.

On that subject, I think Canada's closest port to Europe with a rail connection used to be Sydney, N.S. But Sydney no longer has a rail connection. A study said that the railway owner Genesee & Wyoming wanted to see at least 10,000 rail cars in demand to re-build the line to Sydney, but proponents could only come up with 9,300. A new port expansion might've put Sydney over the 10,000 limit, but the port developers needed assurance the railway would be re-built before they would commit to the expansion.

Another factor to consider is congestion ('dwell times'). Both rail and maritime, but a container ship waiting at anchor is losing a lot of money. I couldn't find a comprehensive table but I read that Saint John is running at about 50% capacity which would assume a quick turnaround.

Ships also lose a bit of time I think sailing into and out of the Bay of Fundy, though I'm not sure how much.

 

[roger1818]

Yes, I know that. But that CP route has gone to shit since the 1990s. It’s not nearly at the quality of the CN route to Halifax.

I thought CPKC was fixing it. I had heard that one of the reasons they went from double track down to single track on the Winchester Sub was so they could re-use the rails to upgrade the track to St. John. Now granted they would need a lot more track than what they stole from the Winchester Sub, but it gives a hint to their strategy. That was also (IIRC) before they bought KS, so things may have changed.

 

[crs1026]

I thought CPKC was fixing it. I had heard that one of the reasons they went from double track down to single track on the Winchester Sub was so they could re-use the rails to upgrade the track to St. John. Now granted they would need a lot more track than what they stole from the Winchester Sub, but it gives a hint to their strategy. That was also (IIRC) before they bought KS, so things may have changed.

They have indeed put money into the line, but that doesn't imply it was restored to a mainline standard. The route was so run down while divested that even getting back up to 30 mph running is a big deal....the route is now marketable, but not its former self

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

This article from January suggests that the Halifax container terminal has some capacity issues, it seems more on the rail side than the maritime side.

Halifax Terminal Operations Overwhelmed Amid Surge in Container Volumes and Adverse Conditions

Since October 2024, the Port of Halifax has faced a series of challenges that have disrupted terminal operations and extended dwell times for cargo: Key Chal

www.primefreight.com

The capacity issues stem from the fact that CN has put an artificial cap on their own services to Halifax. There is just one container train a day to and from Halifax to points west.

I'm not sure what would persuade them to fix this, short of more agreements with more shipping companies.

Dan

 

[lenaitch]

That means we could invest in needed infrastructure to raise the capacity.

"We" who? Both the Port and CN are private, for-profit companies. The port operator, PSA International, is based out of Singapore, so foreign-owned. Should "we" give them money? Loan them money? Should we throw money at CPKC to upgrade their lines too?

 

[Bordercollie]

"We" who? Both the Port and CN are private, for-profit companies. The port operator, PSA International, is based out of Singapore, so foreign-owned. Should "we" give them money? Loan them money? Should we throw money at CPKC to upgrade their lines too?

In exchange for a share. It would be a better investment than GM and Chrysler....

 

[lenaitch]

In exchange for a share. It would be a better investment than GM and Chrysler....

The government owning equity with those auto manufacturers was a short-term response to a financial crisis that they divested a couple of years later. I suppose it is legally possible for the government to be a shareholder in a for-profit company but a minority shareholder doesn't get to drive the bus.

 

[micheal_can]

The capacity issues stem from the fact that CN has put an artificial cap on their own services to Halifax. There is just one container train a day to and from Halifax to points west.

I'm not sure what would persuade them to fix this, short of more agreements with more shipping companies.

Dan

Is there some sort of information that is available publicly about it?

"We" who? Both the Port and CN are private, for-profit companies. The port operator, PSA International, is based out of Singapore, so foreign-owned. Should "we" give them money? Loan them money? Should we throw money at CPKC to upgrade their lines too?

The government owning equity with those auto manufacturers was a short-term response to a financial crisis that they divested a couple of years later. I suppose it is legally possible for the government to be a shareholder in a for-profit company but a minority shareholder doesn't get to drive the bus.

When I saw "we" I mean all parties. Whether it be private or government or both, investing in ports, especially when we are going to pivot away from the USA and out to the rest of the world would be worth the investment. We throw money at other things to invest in them. What is wrong with throwing money at the port authority, which is a federal agency? What is wrong with investing in the railway to move our goods better?

 

[lenaitch]

When I saw "we" I mean all parties. Whether it be private or government or both, investing in ports, especially when we are going to pivot away from the USA and out to the rest of the world would be worth the investment. We throw money at other things to invest in them. What is wrong with throwing money at the port authority, which is a federal agency? What is wrong with investing in the railway to move our goods better?

Fair. The Port Authorities are federal Boards; the terminal operators are not. Private entities will invest where they see a return.

 

[micheal_can]

Fair. The Port Authorities are federal Boards; the terminal operators are not. Private entities will invest where they see a return.

And granting low cost loans for the private entities would be a reasonable thing to do, in my view. The goal of government investments in something like this is to remove the choke points of the supply chain. Heck, if it were the lack of ships, lets get a crown corporation stood up for that. If the government is going to use our tax dollars, lets have it used for making Canada even better than it already is.