General railway discussions

[Allandale25]

^ From the headline, I almost thought they were going to advocate for passenger rail to Sudbury. I know it has been debated many times already on UT.

 

[crs1026]

^I was curious enough about the ACR to spend a little time on Google Earth, and discovered just how much road construction there has been along that route. It's pretty difficult to position this line as "there is no road access" anymore. Hawk Jct and Dubreuville are very well connected to the TCH with hard surface roads. While the back country roads may not be all-weather or all-year, they do exist, adequate for adventurous canoeists and back country explorers in 4-wheel vehicles for much of the year. Other than true "drop me in the woods" types, there are not even that many camps or outposts that would justify a remote service.

It would be interesting to compare the existing top map to one from the 1970's to see how the roads may have grown. The idea that this is a remote line may be a fond recollection but not a truth any more.

At any rate, I'm not giving this proposal much chance of going anywhere, unless there is an Indigenous interest and the service would represent something that First Nations would ask for under the umbrella (and funding stream) of reconciliation. If that's how the First Nations choose to spend reconciliation dollars, that's their choice.... but I don't see much utility that can't be equalled by atv's or road vehicles..... so even FN may not see the value.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

^ From the headline, I almost thought they were going to advocate for passenger rail to Sudbury. I know it has been debated many times already on UT.

… by one single UT member.

 

[micheal_can]

OKthePK - Public Canadian Railway News

Canadian railway news collected from a public source on the world wide web.

www.okthepk.ca

"Northeastern Ontario Passenger Rail Advocates Pitching New Plan to Restore Service"

This would require CPKC to reinstall the crossover at Franz. Who would pay for that?

The part of this article that I don't understand is the statement that the northern terminus is South Oba Lke, which is a little short of the CN junction at Oba. There are a couple of wilderness camps on adjacent lakes that might benefit, but nothing visible at Oba Lake itself - on Google anyways. One would think that even a once-weekly connection to VIA at Oba might be marketable in some small way. (I actually made that connection, a long time ago)

The explanation might be that there are a couple of long bridges over the lake between its south end and Oba, and the price tag for returning those to service and maintaining them might be, er, a bridge too far.

- Pul

Sounds like they are trying to be realistic with it.Get what can get going up and running, then maybe ask for more.

 

[micheal_can]

… by one single UT member.

That's likely cus no one else on here would use it on a regular basis as they are not from here.

 

[nfitz]

… by one single UT member.

At the risk of attracting attention from the peanut gallery, after all the money they are needlessly throwing into the service to North Bay, would it hurt to run a second daily train to North Bay, and while one goes to Timmins, the other goes along the Ottawa Valley Railway (OVR) to Sudbury, connecting to the current services to White River (and the Soo?)?

I mean, it's about the same level of stupid - so seems like an excellent Doug Ford move.

What's the condition of the OVR track? It can't be worse than the CN Kitchener to London Track .

 

[lenaitch]

The part of this article that I don't understand is the statement that the northern terminus is South Oba Lke, which is a little short of the CN junction at Oba. There are a couple of wilderness camps on adjacent lakes that might benefit, but nothing visible at Oba Lake itself - on Google anyways. One would think that even a once-weekly connection to VIA at Oba might be marketable in some small way. (I actually made that connection, a long time ago)

The explanation might be that there are a couple of long bridges over the lake between its south end and Oba, and the price tag for returning those to service and maintaining them might be, er, a bridge too far.

- Pul

^I was curious enough about the ACR to spend a little time on Google Earth, and discovered just how much road construction there has been along that route. It's pretty difficult to position this line as "there is no road access" anymore. Hawk Jct and Dubreuville are very well connected to the TCH with hard surface roads. While the back country roads may not be all-weather or all-year, they do exist, adequate for adventurous canoeists and back country explorers in 4-wheel vehicles for much of the year. Other than true "drop me in the woods" types, there are not even that many camps or outposts that would justify a remote service.

It would be interesting to compare the existing top map to one from the 1970's to see how the roads may have grown. The idea that this is a remote line may be a fond recollection but not a truth any more.

At any rate, I'm not giving this proposal much chance of going anywhere, unless there is an Indigenous interest and the service would represent something that First Nations would ask for under the umbrella (and funding stream) of reconciliation. If that's how the First Nations choose to spend reconciliation dollars, that's their choice.... but I don't see much utility that can't be equalled by atv's or road vehicles..... so even FN may not see the value.

- Paul

I seems curious to me as well. When I first quickly read the link I thought it proposed running to Oba, which is bad enough, but some point at the south end of Oba Lake is truly a train to nowhere and makes even less sense. If I recall their earlier work, they were endeavouring to re-establish a passenger service between SSM and Hearst but I would need the business case for this latest effort explained to me. It could be that they are trying to avoid some costly upgrades. If I recall some very old memory, the bridge across Hoodoo Bay on Oba Lake-North is a floating bridge and might be badly deteriorated (in addition to the removed diamond at Franz). It still doesn't seem to have a economic foundation. It might return service to some remote lodges but it doesn't serve any FN communities.

The ACR was never a remote service route. Very little in terms of communities ever grew up along it. It's primary foundation was to serve Algoma Ore Division in Wawa and, secondarily, lumber out of Dubreuilville. The former is gone and the latter barely a shell of itself. There was also some wayside lumber from points along the line as well as interchange traffic with CN and CP.

I would caution against the view of roads on Google. Sometimes its software says there is a road because the image looks like there should be. Even if one is visible, it might not be passable because whoever has the cutting rights no longer uses and maintains it or the MNR has actually closed it and severed access. From when I lived up there in the '80s, I think the only significant change is the road into Dubreuilville is now a paved secondary highway. Oba itself is connected by a 1 1/2 hour torturous dirt road.

 

[micheal_can]

At the risk of attracting attention from the peanut gallery, after all the money they are needlessly throwing into the service to North Bay, would it hurt to run a second daily train to North Bay, and while one goes to Timmins, the other goes along the Ottawa Valley Railway (OVR) to Sudbury, connecting to the current services to White River (and the Soo?)?

I mean, it's about the same level of stupid - so seems like an excellent Doug Ford move.

What's the condition of the OVR track? It can't be worse than the CN Kitchener to London Track .

I can answer that... it is bad. I think they are limited in track speed The existing freight don't seem to move faster than around 30mph. So, although I would love it, I know that is going to be a high cost. I have discussed over on the https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...orthern-ontario-transportation.18652/page-172 #2,579 is a good start to see the back and forth about something.

 

[drum118]

This opens the NA market more for them

Stadler US to Become Its Own Division​

 

[lenaitch]

I can answer that... it is bad. I think they are limited in track speed The existing freight don't seem to move faster than around 30mph. So, although I would love it, I know that is going to be a high cost. I have discussed over on the https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...orthern-ontario-transportation.18652/page-172 #2,579 is a good start to see the back and forth about something.

At the risk of feeding this discussion, simply from a lay observation perspective, I don't get the sense that the OVR trackage is all that bad (certainly not as bad as HRC). Most shortlines typically follow the pattern of increasing active or benign neglect by the original owners over many years, falling deeper into irrelevance and disrepair. Within fairly resent memory, the OVR was operating significant and regular tonnage for CP to Smiths Falls. Again, simply from observation, the rails, ties, ballast, etc. all seem to be in decent shape. I don't really know what speeds they run at, but it is certainly better than HCR.

 

[micheal_can]

At the risk of feeding this discussion, simply from a lay observation perspective, I don't get the sense that the OVR trackage is all that bad (certainly not as bad as HRC). Most shortlines typically follow the pattern of increasing active or benign neglect by the original owners over many years, falling deeper into irrelevance and disrepair. Within fairly resent memory, the OVR was operating significant and regular tonnage for CP to Smiths Falls. Again, simply from observation, the rails, ties, ballast, etc. all seem to be in decent shape. I don't really know what speeds they run at, but it is certainly better than HCR.

Is it 60+ MPH passenger train good? Not a chance.
Is it as bad as HCR? No.
Is it as good as ONR between Cochrane and North Bay? Debatable.

None of their freight trains move at any real speed along it. I'd imagine to bring it up to 60 MPH or better, it would need several millions in a variety of track work.

 

[roger1818]

Sorry I am a bit late to the discussion, but the biggest problem IMHO with HSR between NYC and Toronto is Lake Ontario. An HSR route via Buffalo would be 60% further than flying. Adding pre-clearance facilities to YTZ (which is planned) will be easier and more useful than adding it to Union Station.

 

[Urban Sky]

Sorry I am a bit late to the discussion, but the biggest problem IMHO with HSR between NYC and Toronto is Lake Ontario. An HSR route via Buffalo would be 60% further than flying. Adding pre-clearance facilities to YTZ (which is planned) will be easier and more useful than adding it to Union Station.

That’s indeed part of the reason why I would center cross-border passenger rail initiatives on travel to Buffalo or Detroit rather than NYC or Chicago…

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder if the nuclear waste will go by train.

Ignace is the place for a nuclear waste storage site

After 14-year evaluation process, northwestern Ontario site finally chosen for deep storage facility

www.northernontariobusiness.com

Here’s the place. If you zoom in you can see the rail line running parallel to the north of the highway. Here’s a nuclear waste rail car in the US.

Atlas railcar designed for spent nuclear fuel completes 1,680-mile test run - Trains

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has announced the successful completion of a 1,680-mile round trip as part of the final testing for its Atlas railcar.

www.trains.com

 

[lenaitch]

I wonder if the nuclear waste will go by train.

Ignace is the place for a nuclear waste storage site

After 14-year evaluation process, northwestern Ontario site finally chosen for deep storage facility

www.northernontariobusiness.com

Here’s the place. If you zoom in you can see the rail line running parallel to the north of the highway. Here’s a nuclear waste rail car in the US.

Atlas railcar designed for spent nuclear fuel completes 1,680-mile test run - Trains

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has announced the successful completion of a 1,680-mile round trip as part of the final testing for its Atlas railcar.

www.trains.com

We're still about 20 years out so lots of time to sort out the 'how' and lots of time for lots of protests. No matter which method of transport they choose, a different group of somebodies will be upset; some will be upset (already are) regardless.

I can't find a map that shows exactly where the site is. All I can find is it will be somewhere between Ignace and Wabigoon Lake. If it is south of Hwy 17 it would require a spur for rail service - they likely won't want to transload in town.