G&M on the "Madrid Miracle"

[Archivistower]

Montreal's system also made the trade off of having bigger, higher-ceilinged, more airy stations with having deeper voyages to go to get to a station. My experience of the Montreal Metro is that it's always a block or two from where I am and want to be, I spend what seems like 7 minutes riding an escalator down to where the platform is, just miss the train, and then have what feels like an interminable wait for the next one.

There is much that I love about the Montreal Metro, but I prefer Toronto's.

 

[allabootmatt]

Some Montreal stations seem to really be bizarrely placed--like the eastern branch of the Yellow line being (more or less) under Bleury, instead of St-Laurent or St-Denis. Big WTF on that one. Is anyone aware of why this was done?

 

[poomar]

umm, i'm quite confident that the yellow line is under st. denis in fact. bleury is more than 2 stops west of where the yellow line termintes at Berri-UQAM.

 

[allabootmatt]

Oops. I actually meant Berri. Hence Berri-UQAM.

Which is one or 2 blocks east of St Denis, depending on where you're looking.

Edit: Also, I meant the orange line (the big one). Not really my night...

 

[Oliver Tweed]

I am simultaneously fighting the urge to vomit while giggling in fits of shock and devastation after reading that article.

We SUCK. Holy piles of papal crap, do we ever suck. I am floored.

The silver lining is that you have to know where you are starting from, and this gives us a good idea. Contrasting Madrid and Toronto exposes us for what we are.

If this is possible anywhere on Earth, then there's hope. A tiny, tentative, frayed thread of hope.

How the hell do we turn around public opinion? That is the key to this whole thing. Politicians will do what people want. The people don't want this. Worst of all, it's because they don't know any better. How can we educate people?

 

[ganjavih]

What is wrong with Montreal.

I had the (dis)pleasure of using Montreal's transit system extensively this past weekend. I already knew it was inferior to Toronto's but the frustration of my recent experience really confirmed it. Not only are the Metro frequencies disappointing but I couldn't believe that some major downtown bus routes had frequencies of 20-30 minutes. It becomes very difficult if you have many places to visit in a short amount of time.

 

[mpolo2]

ok people, I am going to admit to my earlier conclusion jumping post. I did some back of the envelope calculations comparing madrid's cost per km of subway and Toronto's and when you adjust for inflation (2%) the two are actually pretty similar.

Madrid
total invstment $2.25 B
KM built 56.3
cost per km $39,964,477
year 1999
in 2010 dollars $49,690,803

total invstment $3.9 B
KM built 54.6
cost per km $71,428,571
year 2003
in 2010 dollars $82,048,976

Toronto
total invstment $.640 B
KM built 8
cost per km $83,750,000
year 2010
in 2010 dollars $83,750,000

as I said, kind of rough, and 2% is a bit arbitrary -> but it seems more similar than I had anticipated - also I think the 1999 one may be impacted by exchange rates.

 

[mpolo2]

Right, then Toronto is ridiculously expensive - and we still dont know why is that.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

2nd Avenue line in New York will cost an estimated $16 billion US for 8.5 miles.

 

[boiler2000]

^ $640 mil will not build the 8km extension. It's only estimated to cover about 30% of the cost.

 

[Mike in TO]

Right, then Toronto is ridiculously expensive - and we still dont know why is that.

Just some of the reasons:

Health and Safety standards in Ontario are pretty much second to none in the world. This adds a significant cost and amount of time to complete a project (time = even more costs)

Red tape and regulations at the local, provincial and federal levels are also very very costly. We;re talking tens of millions of dollars if not more. The EA process alone is very costly and time consuming and all of the standards of design for every aspect of the project will be extensive. The Ontario Building Code sets the bar higher than most other jurisdictions world wide.

We don't know how much of Madrid was cut and cover vs tunneling

The cost of labour in Toronto is likely much much higher than Madrid, not only due to unions and benefits and hours worked etc, but just average pay spread out over a number of years over thousands of workers could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the new line. Living standards and average income alone in Toronto vs Madrid are very different.

Cost of materials. Some materials are based on local circumstances and supply vs demand, while other materials (e.g. steel) are based on the global market.

I'm sure there are a million other small details that add up when you consider the length of the line, the amount of time it will take to complete and the number of people involved. Everyting from consulting fees to cumbersome minute details can add up significantly.

I think Ed007Toronto's example of cost is a much more apt comparison to the situation in Toronto.

 

[Archivistower]

Think of it this way, we're so much better off than Warsaw. Note the timeline for their single subway line:

1950 - the government of Polish People's Republic (PRL) passes the resolution about the construction of subway in Warsaw,
1951 - the construction of a deep subway begins,
1953 - the project is reduced to the experimental segment,
1957 - works definitively interrupted,
1974 - research work continued until this year,
1975 - brief preliminary designs for the first line of subway in Warsaw are completed,
1982 - Resolution No. 266/82, in reference to the construction of the 1st line of the Warsaw Subway, is adopted by the Council of Ministers,
1983 - Subway Construction General Management is established to perform the duties of the Investor and General Contractor,
1983 - on 15th April the first steel pile is driven into the ground at the subway excavations,
1985 - the construction of the tunnel begins: the underground method is applied with the use of underground drilling disks.
1986 - verification of the range of investment and its financial input; change of the completion date of the project,
1987 - changes in the project financing system; the State budget is no longer the only source of financing for the construction,
1989 - a change of priorities; a decision is taken not to construct the A12 Pl. Konstytucji Station and A16 Muranów Station as the first priority,
1990 - 10 subway cars donated by the Soviet Union as a gift,
1990 - the city authorities decrease the speed and the range of the construction of the subway due to financial difficulties,
1994 - the subway purchases 32 Russian-made cars,
1995 - the 1st 11km section of the subway from Kabaty Station to Politechnika Station put in operation

 

[adma]

www.lysator.liu.se/jokes/polish.html

 

[Oliver Tweed]

Red tape and regulations at the local, provincial and federal levels are also very very costly. We;re talking tens of millions of dollars if not more. The EA process alone is very costly and time consuming...

It is ridiculously long. Why? What are we doing differently than anyone else? I don't believe it's just because we do a much more thorough job.

 

[Felino]

The answer to all this is simple: the cottage country specials who live in the 905 region have a ton of political clout. They don't care about Toronto. They make their living here, but their 'home' is in Oakville and Burlington and their cottage is in Muskoka.

As long as their vote continues to matter more than the single despots that live in Toronto, we will never have a proper subway system.

The Spaniards and Europeans in general have their own issues to deal with like high unemployment, but I'll tell you this: they are much more prepared for the future than is Canada or the U.S.