FIXING Transit City

[Electrify]

From www.beijingnews.net:



Ontario could do the same, to ease traffic congestion in Toronto.

Considering we just bailed out the auto industry with our tax dollars, that people driving in other parts of the province do not affect Toronto's traffic, that people in Toronto could simply buy a car outside the city limits, and that car dealerships would sue...

 

[spider]

They decide what they want to do, and they do it...for better or worse. In terms of infrastructure development it's an ideal system, but it does have some obvious downsides when it comes personal liberties. For the record though, the god thing?...couldn't care less.

The God thing is not important to me either but the fact that other citizens are not allowed to make it "their" thing is the most basic of liberties recognized in civilized societies.

It's fun to see people jumping on every opportunity to embarrass themselves. Try to find five cities in mainland China that have built "streetcars" (or at-grade light rail, for that matter) in the past five decades.

I was replying to message #96, ask him to provide you with 5 cities you need.

 

[gweed123]

I said this earlier in the thread, but I believe the problem with the SRT has more to do with it being a very poorly executed rail line. Compare the SRT to the 196 York University Rocket: Both are short pseudo extensions of a main line, and both continue the main rapid transit line from the middle of nowhere to a major destination. However the 196 feels less of a chore to ride, even though it operates on a road ROW rather than being fully separated from traffic.

Other factors still come into play as well, such as I can't say if more than 50% of passengers through the station are connecting to the 196 or the YUS, and for most commuters York University is a destination point while the Scarborough Town Center is simply yet another transfer.

I think part of that also comes from the feeling that "ok, it's a bus, it's not meant to be as rapid as a subway, and it's not even close to as expensive as a subway". Whereas the SRT looks kinda like like a subway, rides kinda like a subway, but isn't quite as good as a subway. I would guess that tends to make people think "if it looks like a subway, acts like a subway, why isn't it just a subway?".

 

[gweed123]

A page or two ago I floated the idea about interlining the Jane and Don Mills LRTs through the tunnel portion of Eglinton. I updated by map to show that, however they are in faded lines because those would be considered unfunded projects. Whatever is not faded is what we can get for the current $8.15B.

'Funded' projects include:
B-D extension to STC
Eglinton LRT from Jane to Don Mills
Sheppard subway extension to Vic Park
Sheppard BRT from Vic Park to Morningside
McCowan BRT from STC to Sheppard
Finch West LRT from Finch West Stn to Humber College

Unfunded (faded) projects include:
DRL from St. Andrew to Science Centre
Eglinton West LRT from Jane to Pearson
Eglinton East LRT from Science Centre to Kingston Rd
Jane LRT from Eglinton Flats to Vaughan Centre
Don Mills LRT from Science Centre to Seneca

The idea with the interlining is that the capacity (and demand) within the Eglinton tunnel will be greater than the demand on the outer surface portions. As a result, by interlining with two N-S LRTs, you increase the frequency of trains within the tunnel, without requiring any short-turning, etc. If someone is travelling from Eglinton-Yonge to Eglinton-Allen, they really don't care if they're on an Eglinton train or a Jane-Eglinton-Don Mills train. If someone is travelling from downtown to destinations along Jane or Don Mills, they can take YUS up to Eglinton, and then go east or west using an E train, which would then curve north after leaving the tunnel. This reduces the number of transfers by 1 for nearly all passengers.

In case you were wondering about labelling, well I took a page from the NYC subway book, and used the same number/letter in the round coloured bubble. Only what I did was all subway (HRT) routes are numbered, and all LRT/BRT routes are lettered. Hopefully they're legible, I had to shrink it down to fit it onto UT.

 

[golodhendil]

I was replying to message #96, ask him to provide you with 5 cities you need.

"In China, 1,400 km rail transit lines were under construction and 2,610 km more were planned in 2009.

China would invest 700 billion yuan (102.5 billion U.S. dollars) on urban rail construction in the coming five years.

Where does it say streetcar?

 

[Second_in_pie]

I don't think anyone's claiming China's perfect, but you have to acknowledge the effectiveness of a more authoritarian governemnt. They don't bend to NIMBYs, or set priorities based on political ridings, or think in 4 year blocks. They decide what they want to do, and they do it...for better or worse. In terms of infrastructure development it's an ideal system, but it does have some obvious downsides when it comes personal liberties. For the record though, the god thing?...couldn't care less.

It's not even that much. Sure, there are some people who definitely get the short end of the stick, their houses torn down for a new rapid transit line, but you don't get the kind of attitude that you do in Canada. You don't get half the city protesting transit expansion just because it costs money. The Chinese government does an incredibly good job of doing what's right for the country overall, and for the most part, Chinese citizens aren't up in arms that the government's "wasting money" on thousands of km of inner and inter city rail or even new highways.

Check out this shot of an elevated section of Paris' metro:

http://goo.gl/maps/GkOh

Now I doubt Sheppard would ever be that kind of avenue, no matter how much transit we put along it, but it does show how elevated rail can be executed while minimizing impact on the urban environment. We could have the best of both worlds here: a continuation of the Sheppard rapid transit line without transfers or running at grade with city traffic, while avoiding the cost of tunneling and reducing visual impact on the street level.

We can always hope
Actually, I think that something at least similar to that could be achieved on Sheppard. It all depends on how we fill out the city with the coming millions.

 

[spider]

It's not even that much. Sure, there are some people who definitely get the short end of the stick, their houses torn down for a new rapid transit line, but you don't get the kind of attitude that you do in Canada. You don't get half the city protesting transit expansion just because it costs money.

You don't get anybody protesting anything because that would land them in prison, lack of protest in a Dictatorship does not translate into agreement, it translates into fear.

The Chinese government does an incredibly good job of doing what's right for the country overall, and for the most part, Chinese citizens aren't up in arms that the government's "wasting money" on thousands of km of inner and inter city rail or even new highways.

So you applaud the actions of the Chinese government because it ignores any opinion that is counter to theirs (and yours) and it delivers lots of streetcars. You would give up the rights the Chinese citizens can only dream of for a streetcar?

 

[golodhendil]

^ Looks like someone really has an obsession with streetcars and is seeing them everywhere that they aren't. For your education, almost all of those thousands of kms of rail are HRT subways or fully grade-separated LRT, or high-speed rail (with a few maglevs and monorails thrown into the mix).

But it's also true that SIP's view is a very naive one, and so is spider's view of absolute dictatorship. There might not be many Chinese citizens up in arms over wasting money on projects, but there are plenty who protest the way some of the projects have gone wrong, and "getting their houses torn down" is probably the least serious of some of the offences.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Obviously the truth is neither. But if Chinese citizens were given the choice that people here in Toronto get as a money vs intensity of transit, I don't feel like they'd be sheeping over LRT when we have such an incomplete RT network right now. The same for HSR. And it's not just China; Europe and East Asian democracies know about investing in infrastructure to benefit people and their future, and I don't think any cities in any of those countries are going with LRT in the way that Toronto is.

 

[spider]

We have a new benchmark for the incoherent to aspire to.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto's rapid/mass transit is so small and money so scarce that tearing down a rapid transit line to build a $1,000,000,000 replacement with not one foot longer system is ridiculous.
At Kennedy the BD should be extended east to Kingston and the SRT at Kennedy should head west on Eglinton to become a Eglinton Crosstown. Has this idea ever been suggested?
I think if they fixed the Kennedy transfer station, improved and lengthend the current stations, and improved the line to accomodate 3 MK11 cars running every 3 minutes the riders would be most impressed by the system.

 

[Amy Rose]

Toronto's rapid/mass transit is so small and money so scarce that tearing down a rapid transit line to build a $1,000,000,000 replacement with not one foot longer system is ridiculous.
At Kennedy the BD should be extended east to Kingston and the SRT at Kennedy should head west on Eglinton to become a Eglinton Crosstown. Has this idea ever been suggested?
I think if they fixed the Kennedy transfer station, improved and lengthend the current stations, and improved the line to accomodate 3 MK11 cars running every 3 minutes the riders would be most impressed by the system.

Like what was being talked about in this topic or some other topic about integration of ECLRT and SLRT