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First Canadian Place marble panels falling

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Someone ought to remind Harry that Yonge St. was closed a few months back because stuff was falling off his building.

Surely there's a better choice than Harry to talk about the pros and cons of a marble clad building.
 
Why are they (the post) talking to Stinson about what materials should clad a building? With a new skin it could become king of the skyline again.
 
From the Post:

Replacing marble front could be an option
First Canadian Place
Matthew Coutts, National Post
Published: Friday, May 18, 2007

<snip>
The buildings' exterior shells, Italian carrara marble, are rarely used in construction because of how poorly they stand up to the elements, said Harry Stinson, Toronto's best-known real estate developer, who manages the nearby One King West condo/ hotel.

"Water is the worst enemy to a building. If it penetrates into the skin of the building, into the marble, in behind the marble, the marble will absorb moisture. With any material that absorbs water, over time, situation are likely going to arise," he said.

"It is a grand material, but I think its use is best confined to an ornamental base of the building. To do an extremely tall building all in marble cladding is historically not a good thing to do."

<snip>

What the? Is Harry our best known developer? And is just leaving it at that really the best way to describe him? And do we really want to interview him to get an expert opinion on building skins? This all looks very lickspittly on Matthew Coutts.

42
 
FCP is more than dull... it's downright ugly. A recladding and minor redesign (like that dude's model) could save Toronto's most prominent building.
 
^How much would it cost to do a proper job? The AON marble-to-granite recladding cost $80M american, and that was decades ago. If the decision is made to reclad the building, I would also like to see a new roof element added, if only to push the official height past 1000ft/300m. Even a PoMo roof pyramid would be okay, although I would prefer something a bit more original.

Bill
 
Even a PoMo roof pyramid would be okay,

I thought this penis extension strategy sounded pretty lame... but I took a second look at BMO (some of you will remember my "re-cladding" efforts from years ago... guess I dreamed of falling marble before one landed on my noggin.

Anyway... re-invigorating a 30+ year old tower... Philly's Mellon tower has always been a favourite of mine, not because of the awkward cheops stuck on top... but because the mix of materials used somehow worked.

So... nice pyramid (^^ your idea) plus nice materials... kinda works and still looks like Toronto.

bmofix.jpg
 
Actually, perhaps building on the "horizontal-into-vertical" issue, I was pondering today how this calamity might inspire a buncha overzealous extreme-makeover bright ideas--including, well, a PoMo pyramid/dirigible mast/whatever. Even the corner masts on Smahel's thesis concept seem overwrought (but hey, it's for thesis' sake).

All things considered, it may be best to follow Chicago's "Big Stan" model by not going much further than changing cladding material and leaving as much well enough alone as possible, simply from the POV of prudence. Remember: this is a safety issue, not a "correcting aesthetic sins" issue. If you want something snazzy a la mode, build something new or inflict it on something smaller/lesser (cf. the 181 University/150 York complex). But all in all, FCP's just too benignly (yes, benignly) prominent/familiar to merit this sort of restlessness. Play it simple, and only do something more drastic if it gets blown up by some Osama Bar Sinister figure.

In this light, I'm wondering what the tallest tower ever to get an "extreme makeover" (i.e. beyond Big Stan's simple cladding change) is. In Toronto, I guess 2 Bloor W is a pending candidate...

Oh, and definitely in the category of "bad timing" was this thing in the NOW Patio Guide that came out just yesterday, in the category of "Beautiful Views", no less...

Vertical
100 King West, at Adelaide, 416-214-2252.

The downtown core's newest patio is also its most luxe. Just off First Canadian Place's gorgeously refurbished courtyard and surrounded by a breathtaking panorama that recalls New York City's Rockefeller Center, this lavish veranda also overlooks a waterfall and the TD towers across the way. Can't fork out the big bucks for organic Arctic char with spaghetti squash, or wild boar ragu over pappardelle noodles? The patio attached to First Can's food court right next door has the identical view.
 
If FCP is indeed in need of a re-clad, I don't see why its design which is far from heritage calibre cannot be re-addressed. While I appreciate Adma seeing the quality in everything (the narration is beyond annoying though) including a nicely formed piece of dog shit on a sidewalk - it is still dog shit
 
why would they waste the effort and $$$ to reclad it?

the most logical solution from a profit standpoint is that they're gonna maintain it at most because they're probably gonna sell the place down the road. for the amount of money it would cost to reclad the place, they can build more square footage where ever of what ever to lease to somebody. recladding won't make them money. they will at most get rid of the danger for now and say "fuck it, let the next guy deal with it".

i only see the recladding scenario if they are forced to do it or if it causes them problems down the road if they wanna sell the place. and if this is the case, i could see them cladding the building with some sort of composite material that somewhat looks the same but is cheaper.

what a waste of marble and everything involved from extraction to installment.
 
The rest of that article about the thesis on recladding FCP is here:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/215323

He saw marble problem coming

STEVE RUSSELL / TORONTO STAR
Workers inspect tiles a day after winds ripped a slab of marble off First Canadian Place on May 15, 2007.

Photo gallery: Chunk falls off building

Diagram: flawed facade
U of T architecture student studied First Canadian Place, gave suggestions
May 18, 2007 04:30 AM
Robyn Doolittle
Staff Reporter


He didn't realize it at the time, but Thomas Smahel first began research work on "To Heal an Ailing Skycraper" a decade ago.

Years before enrolling in the University of Toronto's architecture program and starting his master's thesis, Smahel spotted several shadowy spots on the side of First Canadian Place. He looked closer and noticed giant holes where marble blocks should have been, and wondered why so many blocks needed replacing.

In a wind storm Tuesday, one of those blocks, just over a metre-square, plunged 50 storeys off the 72-storey office tower, which is the tallest in Canada. No one was injured, but police were forced to shut down sections of Adelaide, Bay and King Sts. while engineering crews inspected panels.

"When I had to choose a building to test my master's thesis topic, First Canadian Place was the obvious choice," he said. "In the architecture community it's not the most popular design, to say politely."

As Smahel began researching its history, he learned architect Edward Durrell Stone designed a similar structure in Chicago, now called the Aon Centre. That tower's 83 storeys were also outfitted with carrara marble siding. In both cities, building operators found that the soft stone was susceptible to warping and cracking.

To Smahel's knowledge, no other highrise buildings use this type of stone in Canada. "Marble had not been used on buildings that tall before." Because panels were falling off of the Chicago tower, the owners reclad the entire building in another material – granite, Smahel said.

Granite is harder and less permeable to water. Each slab, whether granite or marble, costs roughly $600.

In total, the cost to replace the Chicago tower's 43,000 slabs was $80 million (U.S.) Smahel estimates the cost to refit all 44,000 panels on First Canadian Place at $150 million.

When Smahel, 32, met with the owners of First Canadian Place last year to discuss his research, he could tell "it was a touchy subject."

Smahel suspects the huge cost is the reason the owner has not chosen to renovate the entire building.

Brookfield Properties, which purchased First Canadian Place more than a year ago, has not said what caused the slab to fall, but the company has consulted moisture experts in recent months.

Although more costly in the long term, the current approach of replacing blocks as needed is certainly cheaper, Smahel said. Another option would be to replace the problematic marble blocks with granite ones, although matching the colours could prove difficult.

"In the end, I suggested (in the thesis) the cost of replacing it with granite would be so expensive that replacing it with solar panels ... – even white ones if they want the same look – could provide a great deal of energy and save some money," Smahel said. "The downside would be they have a life span of 20 years, although it seems these panels only have a lifespan of 30 years."

Meanwhile, King St. W. was reopened at 9 p.m. last night after engineers examined the panels for stability.

Brookfield Properties has been footing the bill for the officers manning the road barriers at First Canadian Place.

with files from Tracy Huffman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love the idea of replacing the marble tiles with solar panels. They're cheaper than either the marble or granite tiles and in turn generate energy to power the building, saving even more money.
 
.... btw, it's a no brainer to replace the damaged marble slabs with a solution (granite) but instead, they're just replacing them with new marble slabs which will eventually find the same fate and need to be replaced.

Their argument is that it would be difficult to match the colour. Well, I don't think they've had a look at FCP because as it stands, there's a high contrast between the gritty old marble and the new slabs anyway.
 
Here's an image I did a number of years ago about a possible way to renovate the top of the tower.
Basically, it involved floating an extra cladding wall around the top of the roof, to hide the flat mechanical penthouse and messy communications equipment from view. It would increase height and hopefully, improve the building's visual profile.
The various antennae could be consolidated into one impressive new spire, while a 'concealed' open floor between the existing building and the proposed addition would allow more room for new microwave and cellphone transmitters, while not aesthetically disrupting the building's look.
On the new roof, It would be nice to have an open-air observation deck with a bit o' green. The views from this one would be pretty phenomenal.

fcptopredo.jpg


hmmmm....just noticed the old logo....!
 
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