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Finch West Line 6 LRT

doublemint said:
Not entirely sure who the decision rests with but when comparing our fare price with fare prices around the world, our system is very cheap. We should raise fares by at least 5 cents a year for the next 5-10 years. That goes a long way.
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yes, $3.30 is pretty cheap globally but it really varies a lot. New York City is the equivalent fare of $4.10 or so for comparison, which is probably closer to the average.
 
thenorth said:
From what I’ve seen, I’m completely convinced that we can get this thing down to sub-30 minute end-to-end travel times. It’s beyond frustrating that Metrolinx’s incompetence has put us in this position.

I also have no idea why Metrolinx is targeting about 33 minute travel times, when faster is clearly possible. Why are we intentionally targeting slow and mediocre speeds?
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Are travel times at 33 minutes yet?? I don't think you need to worry about them not going below 33 minutes until we reach 33 minutes.
 
Obsidian said:
Are travel times at 33 minutes yet?? I don't think you need to worry about them not going below 33 minutes until we reach 33 minutes.
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We’ve already seen trips that fast. Just not on a consistent basis. I’m not sure why there is so much variation in trip times.
 
Monarch Butterfly said:
The TTC has been underfunded ever since the 1990s, starting with former Premier Mike Harris. The TTC still is underfunded for operations.
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Underfunded? They have an overspending problem. Drivers are getting paid close to $40/hr if not more, close to $50/hr on Sundays (x1.25 on Sundays from what I heard), and this includes station collectors, who often gather around together socializing rather than guarding their entrances. I'm not saying they don't deserve a fair wage, but there is such a thing as too much, and when wages are the highest proportion of expenses for the TTC, they need to control their spending first. They've given into most of the union demands. They are not underfunded, they have a spending problem. Not to mention they've overspent on vehicles, especially electric buses, that didn't even perform to expectations. We didn't need "operators" on the SRT. We can automate subways with ATC so that we don't need an "operator" pressing a button. These are choices. And giving into union demands for extraordinarily high wages is a choice.
 
mikey7767 said:
Underfunded? They have an overspending problem. Drivers are getting paid close to $40/hr if not more, close to $50/hr on Sundays (x1.25 on Sundays from what I heard), and this includes station collectors, who often gather around together socializing rather than guarding their entrances. I'm not saying they don't deserve a fair wage, but there is such a thing as too much, and when wages are the highest proportion of expenses for the TTC, they need to control their spending first. They've given into most of the union demands. They are not underfunded, they have a spending problem. Not to mention they've overspent on vehicles, especially electric buses, that didn't even perform to expectations. We didn't need "operators" on the SRT. We can automate subways with ATC so that we don't need an "operator" pressing a button. These are choices. And giving into union demands for extraordinarily high wages is a choice.
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$40 an hour isn't exorbitant. I agree the staff could do a better job watching entrances.

Perhaps a long term idea is to move the bus platforms at stations outside the fare-paid area so people that sneak in through the bus platforms need to tap to get onto the subway. This would create other problems (people could not board while an operator is taking a break
 
PL1 said:
$40 an hour isn't exorbitant. I agree the staff could do a better job watching entrances.

Perhaps a long term idea is to move the bus platforms at stations outside the fare-paid area so people that sneak in through the bus platforms need to tap to get onto the subway. This would create other problems (people could not board while an operator is taking a break
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They could at least try to ticket people who walk in first. Fare inspectors don’t seem to care when they see people do that.
 
mikey7767 said:
Underfunded? They have an overspending problem. Drivers are getting paid close to $40/hr if not more, close to $50/hr on Sundays (x1.25 on Sundays from what I heard), and this includes station collectors, who often gather around together socializing rather than guarding their entrances. I'm not saying they don't deserve a fair wage, but there is such a thing as too much, and when wages are the highest proportion of expenses for the TTC, they need to control their spending first. They've given into most of the union demands. They are not underfunded, they have a spending problem. Not to mention they've overspent on vehicles, especially electric buses, that didn't even perform to expectations. We didn't need "operators" on the SRT. We can automate subways with ATC so that we don't need an "operator" pressing a button. These are choices. And giving into union demands for extraordinarily high wages is a choice.
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I don't agree that they overspend per se on labour. It's a subjective judgement whether you think they are overpaid or not. If you look at the typical salaries for operators in the GTHA they aren't very high compared to the cost of living. Last I checked, TTC ops start at just under $30 and max out around $40. The non-operating staff can kick rocks though. On the new LRTs, I have seen half-a dozen staff gathered in the booths, chatting it up on multiple occasions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comments/1cuy5o8/ttc_transit_operator_starting_salary/

However, on the subject of labour costs, I agree that the way forward in developed countries is automation. Be it smaller people mover systems like VAL, or light and heavy metro. Ignoring Eglinton, LRTs might cost less to start, but you lose in the long run in terms of operating costs since low floor trams / LRTs in mixed traffic cannot be fully automated yet. Unless you want to count Moscow's "AI Driverless Tram", which still has a human attendant.


And yet there were people unironically advocating against automation on Urban Toronto recently, ignoring the fact that 70.5% of the $3.028 billion TTC operating budget is labour: $2.135 billion.
1772846847945.png

Page 24/36: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2026/bu/bgrd/backgroundfile-261746.pdf

If we can free up just $500 million per year that can go towards the capital budget instead, that would allow the TTC to partially break away from its reliance on Metrolinx for transit expansion. Rapid transit projects take 10+ years in Toronto e.g. Line 2 Scarborough extension likely taking 10+ years. $5 billion over 10 years can at least pay for a few km of LRT or subway extensions. Or more conservatively, $5 billion over 10 years would go a long way for bus & streetcar lanes, among other quick fixes for the TTC.

In the current economic environment, it's very difficult, if not untenable to pay operators a living wage while expanding transit. Even lower labour cost places like China, India, Malaysia, Thailand, Turkey, and Colombia have defaulted to driverless instead of driver-operated metros for new lines.

It's not that we should pay TTC operators less, we should strive to have less operators to begin with. At the end of the day, society would benefit from more transit, even if less operator jobs were to exist.
 
mikey7767 said:
Underfunded? They have an overspending problem. Drivers are getting paid close to $40/hr if not more, close to $50/hr on Sundays (x1.25 on Sundays from what I heard), and this includes station collectors, who often gather around together socializing rather than guarding their entrances. I'm not saying they don't deserve a fair wage, but there is such a thing as too much, and when wages are the highest proportion of expenses for the TTC, they need to control their spending first. They've given into most of the union demands. They are not underfunded, they have a spending problem. Not to mention they've overspent on vehicles, especially electric buses, that didn't even perform to expectations. We didn't need "operators" on the SRT. We can automate subways with ATC so that we don't need an "operator" pressing a button. These are choices. And giving into union demands for extraordinarily high wages is a choice.
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You have to remember that most of the time they do nothing but one emergency with two full trains worth of people requires a lot of manpower.

They are there in case of an emergency.
 
PL1 said:
$40 an hour isn't exorbitant. I agree the staff could do a better job watching entrances.

Perhaps a long term idea is to move the bus platforms at stations outside the fare-paid area so people that sneak in through the bus platforms need to tap to get onto the subway. This would create other problems (people could not board while an operator is taking a break
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$40 is not exorbitant, but it is quite high for someone who drives a bus. Or is a station collector. YRT, MiWay, etc all pay way less. Even NYC pays a lot less. We are one of the highest if not the highest in North America. Even a 25% cut would be a living wage in Toronto, and more than fair for an operator. And we'd save more than $500 Million a year. That's not negligible. A lot more transit could be built for that much. But....I digress, this thread is full of closed minded condescending "people" who like to laugh when another perspective or even simple reality is presented, so go ahead, have your laugh. I'll continue to drive on Finch West.
 
mikey7767 said:
$40 is not exorbitant, but it is quite high for someone who drives a bus. Or is a station collector. YRT, MiWay, etc all pay way less. Even NYC pays a lot less. We are one of the highest if not the highest in North America. Even a 25% cut would be a living wage in Toronto, and more than fair for an operator. And we'd save more than $500 Million a year. That's not negligible. A lot more transit could be built for that much. But....I digress, this thread is full of closed minded condescending "people" who like to laugh when another perspective or even simple reality is presented, so go ahead, have your laugh. I'll continue to drive on Finch West.
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I'll nitpick you here, a 25% cut would be crazy, I don't think TTC operators deserve to be paid less than they are now. You'd be having them paid as low or lower than custodial staff in many places. No offence to custodial staff, who are incredibly important to society. The operator job is unique in having little to no low opportunity for advancement, being monotonously the same nearly everyday, along with mental health risks from conflicts with jumpers and unaware idiots.

I'll hazard a guess, going by headcount, since around 45% of TTC employees are operators, thus 45 to 60% of labour costs are operators? (Wild guess here)

Cutting down their wages by 25% wouldn't cut their non-wage compensation, and either way, would not result in a 25% reduction in total labour costs. The TTC as you have implied, has many non-operator and non-line employees.

Bear in mind, living (housing) costs are much higher in Toronto than other cities in the wider GTHA. As best as I can tell, $38 and change per hour for a TTC operator in 2024 (see previous post) is on par with Mississauga and Brampton. And naturally higher cost of living and transit demand would push these costs up. Not to mention the higher value provided by a streetcar or subway op, and their specialized expertise. You can't reasonably expect all transit operators to live in the boonies, just to drive into the city for work. Although I have heard of a few TTC operators with very long commutes.

Anyways, here is a chart with highest hourly wages after a few years (not starting wage), not including the TTC. The pattern I see is the places with the lowest transit usage tend to have the lowest wages.

1772861481652.png
 
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mikey7767 said:
$40 is not exorbitant, but it is quite high for someone who drives a bus. Or is a station collector. YRT, MiWay, etc all pay way less. Even NYC pays a lot less. We are one of the highest if not the highest in North America. Even a 25% cut would be a living wage in Toronto, and more than fair for an operator.
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Are you an operator? How do you know what's fair? Especially when it's a position that comes with a growing amount of abuse and harassment from the public, and if you're a subway operator, the potential trauma of being an unwilling participant in someone's suicide.

You say NYC pays "a lot less"; have you even looked?

There are NYC bus drivers making over USD$235k/yr!

Even starting pay is more for bus operators at the MTA (USD$26.98/CAD$36.60 in 2023) than the TTC (CAD$29.44 in 2024).

mikey7767 said:
And we'd save more than $500 Million a year.
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"but think of my wallet!"

mikey7767 said:
That's not negligible. A lot more transit could be built for that much.
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It's not like it would work that way and that there'd instantly be $500m of extra money in the coffers.

First off, you could only cut salaries for new hires. By law, you can't just cut someone's wages for doing the same job. So, it'd be a slow trickle of new recruits.

Second, fewer people would apply; especially those living out in the GTA if they can get a job at their local agency for the same (or more). That means a much smaller pool to hire from. Ultimately, you're likely to end up with the turnover and liability costs associated with a lower quality work force, dealing with the additional costs of hiring employment agencies to seek out new recruits OR seasoned operators forced to take overtime. Do you save much then? Not an instant $500m is it?

The world is full of so many people who only ever think everyone else is overpaid, underworked and are lousy at what they do (but it never applies to them).
 
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