Finch West Line 6 LRT

[slapped_chicken]

There are lots of places that are building LRT lines and networks that cross cites. A few examples in the UK are Manchester and Nottingham. In Australia you have Melbourne which has a very large tram network then you also have Sydney that is building a few more lines as well. In the US Seattle and Portland both have fairly large LRT networks too.

Yea i know, I think what I was trying to say was that not a majority of riders will actually use a crosstown LRT line to ride "across town", even though the line crosses the entire city. Most would hop on and off at random points. I think it's great to build these "crosstown" LRT lines across the city's busiest throughfares so as long as it attracts high local ridership along most of the line (and we already see that with the bus services on routes like Finch, so great!); although there will be a rare rider that travels great distances on it (me, I'd do that for fun), most of these commuters would opt for faster services, like some proposed Sheppard RT like rainforest said, the 407 busway or whatever northern GTA rapid transit line is planned. We don't need to slap super-fast rapid transit on every corridor.

And on a side note since you mentioned Melbourne, I'd love to see the TTC take some inspiration from how streetcars are run in Melbourne. Hook turns, *full* transit malls, ROWs, and temporary ROWs during rush hour would be nice to have

 

[KevinT]

If the goal is to provide higher capacity for local/feeder service, is there really a need for it to be 'crosstown'? It would be a waste of time for someone to trundle across town at 28 kph. And as a transit operator, you'd probably rather turn that seat over a few times along the route than to have someone ride it 'crosstown'.

I don't see anything wrong with a high capacity local/feeder service going across town, as it connects any two points along it together without a transfer. Just because the route itself goes across town doesn't mean that each individual rider is also expected to do so, that's what express and commuter routes with wider stop spacing are for.

Admittedly, no such express/commuter route exists across the top of the city yet. (Or the middle, the Bloor line certainly doesn't cut it with it's stop spacing.)

 

[W. K. Lis]

Yea i know, I think what I was trying to say was that not a majority of riders will actually use a crosstown LRT line to ride "across town", even though the line crosses the entire city. Most would hop on and off at random points. I think it's great to build these "crosstown" LRT lines across the city's busiest throughfares so as long as it attracts high local ridership along most of the line (and we already see that with the bus services on routes like Finch, so great!); although there will be a rare rider that travels great distances on it (me, I'd do that for fun), most of these commuters would opt for faster services, like some proposed Sheppard RT like rainforest said, the 407 busway or whatever northern GTA rapid transit line is planned. We don't need to slap super-fast rapid transit on every corridor.

And on a side note since you mentioned Melbourne, I'd love to see the TTC take some inspiration from how streetcars are run in Melbourne. Hook turns, *full* transit malls, ROWs, and temporary ROWs during rush hour would be nice to have

The problem in Toronto is the Transportation Department, who sees public transit as third class behind trucks & automobiles, doesn't know that pedestrians exist, and their enablers on city council and Queen's Park.

From link.

 

[afransen]

Admittedly, no such express/commuter route exists across the top of the city yet. (Or the middle, the Bloor line certainly doesn't cut it with it's stop spacing.)

This is the frustrating thing. I think people are declaring victory on having 'crosstown' lines that isn't earned.

 

[slapped_chicken]

The problem in Toronto is the Transportation Department, who sees public transit as third class behind trucks & automobiles, doesn't know that pedestrians exist, and their enablers on city council and Queen's Park.

Lol that's sad but if a relatively car-oriented city like Melbourne can do it, my simple mind would imagine a place like Toronto can too. But I'm not so aware of the politics here. There seems to be a strong push for transit building here (relative to the rest of North America) but very against projects that discourage driving. It's like they're trying to be pro-transit, but at the same time be pro-auto; and at the end of the day they are simply pro-auto, despite their intentions to build transit.

This is the frustrating this. I think people are declaring victory on having 'crosstown' lines that isn't earned.

eh, it's an improvement nonetheless. With Line 4 and 6, there's some level of rapid transit going both east and west of Yonge in North York (north of the 401). Still, there's a serious need for a fast route through northern Toronto and the best options I can think of are extensions of Sheppard (Sheppard could be a good regional line, should Finch become a local crosstown line), 407 busway (I don't know much about this project), a busway through the hydro corridor or a new RER corridor across the north half of the city (people like to call this the missing link or something?)

 

[micheal_can]

The problem in Toronto is the Transportation Department, who sees public transit as third class behind trucks & automobiles, doesn't know that pedestrians exist, and their enablers on city council and Queen's Park.

From link.

That is because those that plan and fund the network and it's expansions likely have never stepped inside public transit vehicle. Maybe it should be job requirement that those that make these decisions must use transit.

 

[11th]

Lol that's sad but if a relatively car-oriented city like Melbourne can do it, my simple mind would imagine a place like Toronto can too. But I'm not so aware of the politics here. There seems to be a strong push for transit building here (relative to the rest of North America) but very against projects that discourage driving. It's like they're trying to be pro-transit, but at the same time be pro-auto; and at the end of the day they are simply pro-auto, despite their intentions to build transit.

...

Unpopular opinion here, but because their name is "transportation" department, not "transit" department. Being both "pro-car" and "pro-transit" is their job.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Unpopular opinion here, but because their name is "transportation" department, not "transit" department. Being both "pro-car" and "pro-transit" is their job.

"Alleged" is to be their job.

 

[ARG1]

Yea i know, I think what I was trying to say was that not a majority of riders will actually use a crosstown LRT line to ride "across town", even though the line crosses the entire city. Most would hop on and off at random points. I think it's great to build these "crosstown" LRT lines across the city's busiest throughfares so as long as it attracts high local ridership along most of the line (and we already see that with the bus services on routes like Finch, so great!); although there will be a rare rider that travels great distances on it (me, I'd do that for fun), most of these commuters would opt for faster services, like some proposed Sheppard RT like rainforest said, the 407 busway or whatever northern GTA rapid transit line is planned. We don't need to slap super-fast rapid transit on every corridor.

And on a side note since you mentioned Melbourne, I'd love to see the TTC take some inspiration from how streetcars are run in Melbourne. Hook turns, *full* transit malls, ROWs, and temporary ROWs during rush hour would be nice to have

The problem is that you can't build a good transit system on the back of solely radial regional trains, and cross town trams. Sure a good chunk of riders won't go from one end to the other, but there are still probably quite a lot that do, and there's a reason why Melbourne is pushing for Downtown Metro Tunnels and Suburban Rail Loops right now because as it turns out, only having a single downtown train loop with trams holding up the rest of the network isn't a great solution. Sydney I'd argue is a city that does transit right. While Sydney Trains is mostly radial, it does have a looping design where you can get to one part of the metropolitan area to another without too much hassle, they are developing a new metro network that complements the legacy trains network, and Light Rail is only used as a way to complement the trains network, but not as a way to do most of the heavy lifting like in Melbourne.

 

[afransen]

If you are going crosstown (and not downtown) and if you have even a bit of money, you drive instead of taking transit.

 

[KhalilHeron]

If you are going crosstown (and not downtown) and if you have even a bit of money, you drive instead of taking transit.

... not everyone has a car

 

[micheal_can]

... not everyone has a car

Or should even drive.....

 

[slapped_chicken]

If you are going crosstown (and not downtown) and if you have even a bit of money, you drive instead of taking transit.

lol you're giving off some TO department of transportation energy with that statement

The problem is that you can't build a good transit system on the back of solely radial regional trains, and cross town trams. Sure a good chunk of riders won't go from one end to the other, but there are still probably quite a lot that do, and there's a reason why Melbourne is pushing for Downtown Metro Tunnels and Suburban Rail Loops right now because as it turns out, only having a single downtown train loop with trams holding up the rest of the network isn't a great solution. Sydney I'd argue is a city that does transit right. While Sydney Trains is mostly radial, it does have a looping design where you can get to one part of the metropolitan area to another without too much hassle, they are developing a new metro network that complements the legacy trains network, and Light Rail is only used as a way to complement the trains network, but not as a way to do most of the heavy lifting like in Melbourne.

That is true, but the Finch LRT doesn't need to be the answer to providing a high capacity, fast loop.

We do need something like Melbourne - their SRL project is massive. A non-radial regional rail across the north or mid parts of Toronto and the GTA would change our entire regional rapid transit system from being downtown oriented to something more akin to Sydney trains, a very attractive service for travel to various points that isn't just the CBD. Even RER in it's current form can't solve that - it's still just a radial network feeding downtown, only with subway-like service intervals. Sadly there isn't as much ambition here as there is in Sydney or Melbourne or even Montreal.

I'm hoping that when RER becomes popularized, there will be a serious proposal for some kind of regional rail loop as you describe to complement it. But anyways, that's something the Finch LRT doesn't really need to be; it's more of a speed+capacity+reliability upgrade to a local line.

 

[nfitz]

Or should even drive.....

... or even wants to drive cross-town. Transit is often faster. On the rare occasion I've driven cross-town near Bloor-Danforth to save a few minutes ... I've failed to save any. And I doubt that driving across Eglinton would be faster than the subway. I've tried it a couple of times, coming in from the west when Gardiner and 401 are both a complete parking and there aren't any other great options ... works, but there's little point to it other than I started deep in 905.

Driving out to the burbs is a different issue - especially off-peak.

 

[tayser]

The problem is that you can't build a good transit system on the back of solely radial regional trains, and cross town trams. Sure a good chunk of riders won't go from one end to the other, but there are still probably quite a lot that do, and there's a reason why Melbourne is pushing for Downtown Metro Tunnels and Suburban Rail Loops right now because as it turns out, only having a single downtown train loop with trams holding up the rest of the network isn't a great solution. Sydney I'd argue is a city that does transit right. While Sydney Trains is mostly radial, it does have a looping design where you can get to one part of the metropolitan area to another without too much hassle, they are developing a new metro network that complements the legacy trains network, and Light Rail is only used as a way to complement the trains network, but not as a way to do most of the heavy lifting like in Melbourne.

The tram loop in the inner-city is literally a tourist service. All tram routes except two are radial/end up on one of the CBD's main streets - there is very little inner-city crosstown connectivity with the tram network at present.

All train services except for 1-2 lines, currently, loop around the CBD, but that's evolving with the first major change in 2025 with Melbourne Metro (de-looping 3 lines and joining them + building a new branch [airport] for a ~100km long line [in places]), and there are at least 2 major de-looping projects on the cards but not funded. The other projects are Melbourne Metro 2 which would link one line in the north-east with one in the west via Fishermans Bend, the second major project would alter two of the existing four loops to run as a proper track pair and join one of the southern lines with one of the northern lines.

Sydney is still building radial train lines for its inner/middle/outer suburbs - the first "metro" line (the automated/driverless one) is just like any old suburban railway in Australia - just using latest metro tech. They also still have large gaps on the map - namely the lower north-shore and northern beaches (North sweeping to north-east of the Sydney CBD). Sydney's existing network is great for non-CBD related travel in the west/south-west, but is flakey elsewhere (although the first metro is plugging a gap in the north-west - the north-east gap still exists).