F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase

[steveintoronto]

Fair enough, you know what you are talking about. Sad, it looked good in theory.

Make no mistake, the Russians build some astounding aircraft, some that do maneuvers that no-one else's can do (like 'The Cobra'), but their jet engines are a disaster.

Their rockets, on the other hand, have an edge...
Russian SUKHOI SU 35 performing COBRA MANOEUVRE Awesome ...
▶ 2:19

Jul 27, 2013 - Uploaded by ArmedForcesUpdate
The Sukhoi Su-30 (Cyrillic: Сухой Су-30; NATO reporting name: Flanker-C) is a twin-engine, two-seat ...
SU-37 Doing The Cobra Maneuver - YouTube
▶ 2:03

Mar 24, 2007 - Uploaded by Heleno Meira
Russian Video about su-37 Pugachev's Cobra maneuver. ... SU-37 Doing The Cobra Maneuver. Heleno ...
Mig-29 OVT 'Cobra' Manoeuvre, Farnborough '06 - YouTube
▶ 0:46

Sep 4, 2007 - Uploaded by The2ndofJanuary
Display from the Russian plane on one of the 'trade' days at Farnborough '06. ... Mig-29 OVT 'Cobra ...
Russian Sukhoi Su-35 performing Pugachev's Cobra Maneuver ...
▶ 2:19

May 28, 2016 - Uploaded by Hamilton's Military Channel
In aerobatics, Pugachev's Cobra (or Pugachev Cobra) is a dramatic and demanding maneuver in which an ...

 

[steveintoronto]

To bring this back on-topic though, this is where F-18s and the later Super Hornets have a huge advantage by being tried, proven and trusted. And *affordable*. If one Googles "F-35 engine" other than the predictable sales hype, all sorts of issues show, *major* issues.

Do we need that? Absolutely not. Let the US pay to straighten out the design before we stumble up with tongues hanging out to buy them. And the US *hasn't* made the F-35 meet the claims. Not even close. That's theirs to deal with. Let's take the Chevrolet that starts every time, has good mileage, maneuverability, cheap to service and maintain, takes regular fuel, and our pilots are already trained on. Supplement those with a handful of Super Hornets for fulfilling NATO special missions, and upgrade the rest of the fleet while buying in more second-hand from the USN, many with a lot of life left on them.

As stated prior, the earlier F-18 will actually win in a skirmish with a Super-Hornet, more agile, more forgiving, and easier to land in tough conditions.

They won't win any glamour contests, they're not meant to. They're meant to do the job, and get their crew back in one piece. One of the most reliable planes ever built.

 

[ttk77]

Given my previous post, what does your dad say about Russian Sukhoi? So far everybody seem to agree, only Raptor F-22 can beat Su-35 at this point. The rest is inferior. Is it accurate?

We never got into a discussion about Russian aircraft. We did talk about the F-22 though and while it's an excellent aircraft for what it was built for, it sounds like it's meant for a different combat role than what we'd need.

 

[pman]

We never got into a discussion about Russian aircraft. We did talk about the F-22 though and while it's an excellent aircraft for what it was built for, it sounds like it's meant for a different combat role than what we'd need.

Also, isn't the F22 exclusively for US use? To my knowledge only the US flies it.

 

[ttk77]

Also, isn't the F22 exclusively for US use? To my knowledge only the US flies it.

Yes, I believe that's true. My question to him around the F22 was why they're building a new stealth fighter for use with allies when they already have one. The answer was that the F22 was built for an air-to-air combat role while the F35 is more general purpose with payload more optimized for air-to-ground. We didn't really get into why the F22 wasn't being sold to other nations.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Canada will be purchasing 18 Super Hornets to tide it over while engaging in a 5-year bidding process.

I say just skip the bidding process, and make a commitment to a larger number of Super Hornets and call it day.

Canada already has strong relations with Boeing ( CF-18 Hornet, C-17 Globemaster, CH-147F Chinook, plus other systems). Just tell Boeing what you're willing to pay for 80-100 Super Hornets and see if they bite.

The only other realistic option is Lockheed-Martin's F-35. We haven't operated a fighter from Europe since the de havilland Vampire.

Though the RCAF seems happy enough with the BAe Hawks, with the caveat that they're privately owned, not bought by Ottawa.

 

[kEiThZ]

say just skip the bidding process, and make a commitment to a larger number of Super Hornets and call it day.

Nobody in the air force wants this plane. There's a reason it lost every international context it's been in. And why the two users (US Navy and Royal Australian Air Force) are also buying F-35s. They say the plane will be obsolete and need escorts past 2035. Canada wants to fly them till 2050.

This is even worse than the Liberals EH-101/Sea King replacement fiasco. Why do you think Trudeau had to make over ~200 military officers and procurement staff sign NDAs (over governing legislation that already mandates secrecy)? This is absolutely unprecedented for any procurement.

But since it's not Harper muzzling scientists and it's the military, nobody cares....

Oh. And even worse. The Aussies bought all twin seat jets and all were pre-wired for the Growler (Electronic Attack) config. That gives some protection if you're flying non-stealth. Trudeau is buying over 75% single-seat. No chance to even consider adding electronic attack packages. Just send our boys and girls out with giant radar signatures and no jamming cover.....

 

[Admiral Beez]

Nobody in the air force wants this plane. There's a reason it lost every international context it's been in. And why the two users (US Navy and Royal Australian Air Force) are also buying F-35s. They say the plane will be obsolete and need escorts past 2035. Canada wants to fly them till 2050.

Then cancel the competition, and just buy the F-35. When there's only one product to choose from, these competitive bids are artificial and just drag things out too long with no savings or advantages to the bidder.

 

[TOareaFan]

Can't see Boeing's recent actions against BBD and the CDN gov't doing them much good in selling us Super Hornets

 

[kEiThZ]

Then cancel the competition, and just buy the F-35. When there's only one product to choose from, these competitive bids are artificial and just drag things out too long with no savings or advantages to the bidder.

How can Justin Trudeau fulfill a promise if the F-35 wins the competition?

Why do you think they don't want the contest?

And why do you think they made 235 military officers and procurement officers sign NDAs? An unprecedented move for any procurement before. This, from the party that was (rightfully) upset about Harper muzzling scientists. Everybody in the air force knows this is a lemon of a deal. Nobody wants it. And so they are hoping the NDAs take away enough whistleblower protections that nobody really talks.

 

[TOareaFan]

Can't see Boeing's recent actions against BBD and the CDN gov't doing them much good in selling us Super Hornets

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombardier-boeing-ottawa-1.4123209

 

[Admiral Beez]

Can't see Boeing's recent actions against BBD and the CDN gov't doing them much good in selling us Super Hornets

First thing to do is ask if Canadians agree with Boeing. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/bombardier-and-canadas-corporate-welfare-trap

Second question. Does Ottawa want to shaft Boeing Canada to keep Bombardier happy? http://www.boeing.ca/boeing-in-canada/backgrounder.page?

If Boeing is out of the picture AND the F-35 if politically unpalatable, then we need buy the Rafale, Gripen or Typhoon. There is precedent for this move, where Brazil essentially canceled its assumed F-35 buy for the Saab Gripen due to annoyance with USA interference (in this case NSA spying).

So, Trump's pushing Canada on NAFTA, softwood lumber, Bombardier, etc, etc. encourages Canada to buy the Gripen or one of the other two.

 

[BurlOak]

First thing to do is ask if Canadians agree with Boeing. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/bombardier-and-canadas-corporate-welfare-trap

Second question. Does Ottawa want to shaft Boeing Canada to keep Bombardier happy? http://www.boeing.ca/boeing-in-canada/backgrounder.page?

If Boeing is out of the picture AND the F-35 if politically unpalatable, then we need buy the Rafale, Gripen or Typhoon. There is precedent for this move, where Brazil essentially canceled its assumed F-35 buy for the Saab Gripen due to annoyance with USA interference (in this case NSA spying).

So, Trump's pushing Canada on NAFTA, softwood lumber, Bombardier, etc, etc. encourages Canada to buy the Gripen or one of the other two.

Or it could be that there is no short term shortage of aircraft (they lied), and they never really intended to buy the Hornets (they lied). They will just use this as an excuse to defer military expenses and likely choose the F-35 after the next election since they realized they made another stupid election promise and need to find a way of breaking it.

 

[steveintoronto]

Brazil's situation was more complex than it looks, not the least the reluctance of the Pentagon to allow technical transfer via the F35, but in the case of Boeing and Canada, I think Boeing might back-off. Is there a case against BBD by WTO regs? Absolutely. And an equal one against Airbus and Boeing.

In the event, the F35 would continue to be a terrible choice for many technical reasons, the largest military acquisition debacle in US history. What will be interesting is if the F18E/F buy is off (it was a sole source deal, as easily cancelled as proceeded with) what will be considered instead? Value for money, the Gripen cannot be beat, nothing comes close, buying, operating, training, support, but it would require more airfields in remote locations, perhaps not a bad thing, and the Gripen requires very little in the way of sophisticated runways. As to who would want to be stationed so remotely is another question, however...

 

[Admiral Beez]

Brazil's situation was more complex than it looks, not the least the reluctance of the Pentagon to allow technical transfer via the F35, but in the case of Boeing and Canada, I think Boeing might back-off. Is there a case against BBD by WTO regs? Absolutely. And an equal one against Airbus and Boeing.

In the event, the F35 would continue to be a terrible choice for many technical reasons, the largest military acquisition debacle in US history. What will be interesting is if the F18E/F buy is off (it was a sole source deal, as easily cancelled as proceeded with) what will be considered instead? Value for money, the Gripen cannot be beat, nothing comes close, buying, operating, training, support, but it would require more airfields in remote locations, perhaps not a bad thing, and the Gripen requires very little in the way of sophisticated runways. As to who would want to be stationed so remotely is another question, however...

The only challenge with the Gripen is the lack of any stealth. Not that the tinpot dictators the RCAF has historically bombed post-Cold War had latest gen aircraft, but since we'll likely operate the next until 2040 and beyond, we'd best prepare to counter some modern kit.

Gripen is cool though.

Of course, Boeing is a partner with SAAB, so you can't get away from entirely.