Etobicoke Centennial Park - Updated Masterplan

[Towered]

It's kind of sad to see the ski hills close. I had so many great memories there as a kid, and the skiing instructors were great! Sadly, climate change is real.

I don't know...I mean, I guess the ski hill was barely passable to be used for providing basic beginner lessons to little kids, but beyond that it was utterly useless. I don't think we're really losing anything significant to be honest. I'm guessing this means the city will no longer bother to maintain the grass as is and just let nature take over?

 

[crs1026]

I don't know...I mean, I guess the ski hill was barely passable to be used for providing basic beginner lessons to little kids, but beyond that it was utterly useless. I don't think we're really losing anything significant to be honest. I'm guessing this means the city will no longer bother to maintain the grass as is and just let nature take over?

It may not have been Mont Tremblant, but for a certain demographic, ski lessons at Centennial were part of growing up in Etobicoke. Give it another 20 years, and let this generation tell their grandkids enoough stories, and some historian may actually document it as social history. Heritage isn’t only about the pioneers of the 1800’s..

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

It may not have been Mont Tremblant, but for a certain demographic, ski lessons at Centennial were part of growing up in Etobicoke. Give it another 20 years, and let this generation tell their grandkids enoough stories, and some historian may actually document it as social history. Heritage isn’t only about the pioneers of the 1800’s..I don't know...I mean, I guess the ski hill was barely passable to be used for providing basic beginner lessons to little kids, but beyond that it was utterly useless. I don't think we're really losing anything significant to be honest. I'm guessing this means the city will no longer bother to maintain the grass as is and just let nature take over?

The intent is to actively naturalize (plant) the hill (forest and meadow) and have a trail leading to the top. The chalet building will be repurposed.

CRS: It may not have been Mont Tremblant, but for a certain demographic, ski lessons at Centennial were part of growing up in Etobicoke. Give it another 20 years, and let this generation tell their grandkids enoough stories, and some historian may actually document it as social history. Heritage isn’t only about the pioneers of the 1800’s..

I'm sympathetic to the idea of teaching kids of all backgrounds different sports (and giving them different non-sporting experiences) they might not otherwise access be it for lack of exposure/interest in their families, or money.
That could apply to everything from golf to opera. That said; as with golf, we've set prices that would likely remain a barrier to many.

If you were a single parent with one child......and you wanted to go up the hill for just one hour, but had to rent equipment:

For the child:

- 14$ for the hill
- 16$ for the equipment

For the adult
-$17
-$16

So $63 right off the top

But then there's this:

****

I think we need to step back as ask if the goal is really to provide broad access whether that is acceptable; and justifies the expense of the program.
In its current form, we're really subsidizing the middle class and the rich who can't be bothered leaving town.......
We're still cutting low and lower-middle earners out of access.

I can't say it would be my highest investment priority to keep the existing hills alive, or restore old ones (East Don Valley/Rouge Park); or to substantially drop or eliminate fees/financial barriers here.
There are certainly other causes calling on those dollars.

That said, the same argument could kill affordable access to sport entirely.. So I'm open to the idea we should invest in this type of program.
But if so, I think we need to correctly access the costs, and fully fund the program to achieve the socially-desirable outcome.

 

[crs1026]

^I wasn’t arguing for keeping the facility. I was just giving some tribute to the history.

The access to sport thing is a consideration going forward, I agree …. although if we have a middle class, there will always be things that it can afford that others can’t, and that will create perceived barriers and exclusions. There’s less room for that these days, especially in City-run programs, but I’m not going to apologise for growing up in a nice environment and having some nice things.

(I won’t bore anyone with old guy tales of how much harder life was back then….;- ) )

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

^I wasn’t arguing for keeping the facility. I was just giving some tribute to the history.

I was not suggesting otherwise, merely plugging in my 2 cents.

The access to sport thing is a consideration going forward, I agree …. although if we have a middle class, there will always be things that it can afford that others can’t, and that will create perceived barriers and exclusions. There’s less room for that these days, especially in City-run programs, but I’m not going to apologise for growing up in a nice environment and having some nice things.

No need to; just important to consider how to maximize access, with finite dollars.

(I won’t bore anyone with old guy tales of how much harder life was back then….;- ) )

- Paul

Of course you won't............because you're not old yet............you can try again in 20 years. LOL

 

[just east of the creek]

The intent is to actively naturalize (plant) the hill (forest and meadow) and have a trail leading to the top. The chalet building will be repurposed.



I'm sympathetic to the idea of teaching kids of all backgrounds different sports (and giving them different non-sporting experiences) they might not otherwise access be it for lack of exposure/interest in their families, or money.
That could apply to everything from golf to opera. That said; as with golf, we've set prices that would likely remain a barrier to many.

If you were a single parent with one child......and you wanted to go up the hill for just one hour, but had to rent equipment:

For the child:

- 14$ for the hill
- 16$ for the equipment

For the adult
-$17
-$16

So $63 right off the top

But then there's this:

View attachment 361725

****

I think we need to step back as ask if the goal is really to provide broad access whether that is acceptable; and justifies the expense of the program.
In its current form, we're really subsidizing the middle class and the rich who can't be bothered leaving town.......
We're still cutting low and lower-middle earners out of access.

I can't say it would be my highest investment priority to keep the existing hills alive, or restore old ones (East Don Valley/Rouge Park); or to substantially drop or eliminate fees/financial barriers here.
There are certainly other causes calling on those dollars.

That said, the same argument could kill affordable access to sport entirely.. So I'm open to the idea we should invest in this type of program.
But if so, I think we need to correctly access the costs, and fully fund the program to achieve the socially-desirable outcome.

There are other hills with similar stories. Kelso in Halton (you can see from the 401) has filled that role for years and I know of at least a bazillion kids who started skiing there, after school, in the evenings, in various programs, who then graduated to the trek north to Blue Mountain. Given the the OECD states that the middle class in Canada is squeezed at 58% of the total population and with a median income of $45 to $120 K, I would think that any family in the GTA area would be interested in those programs at affordable price points, given the costs of living in the area. And that does not even include the 32% of the population classified as lower income or poor.

But the cost of running Centennial for a ski hill (or Kelso possibly) given the variable climate and climate change could be prohibitive. How many days of natural snow cover can be expected? I do not think there is any artificial snowmaking capability and even then? I agree that the possibility of the days of skiing at Centennial are over and those funds should be devoted to other accessible programs. And as noted, there are a multitude of programs which deserve support .

 

[Towered]

It may not have been Mont Tremblant, but for a certain demographic, ski lessons at Centennial were part of growing up in Etobicoke. Give it another 20 years, and let this generation tell their grandkids enoough stories, and some historian may actually document it as social history. Heritage isn’t only about the pioneers of the 1800’s..

- Paul

I was one of those kids, and I'll tell my grandkids how much it sucked!

 

[daniel_kryz]

My argument against ski hills is climate change, which is pretty sad because I would hate to see less snow. On the other hand, I don't think skiing and other natural activities should be far away from the city. One of Vancouver's greatest strengths is its access to nature (and skiing) in very close proximity to the CBD. Sadly, Ontario has nice natural activities but they're usually far away and not very prominent. And only people that have cars can access these amenities, which creates a less interesting urban environment and makes these fun activities out-of-reach for many.

 

[Northern Light]

Of all the curious things to see lobbied.............

Details for Subject Matter Registration: SM32643​

Business/Organization name

2794116 Ontario Inc

Other Trade Names

Toronto West Tennis

Decision(s) or issue(s) to be lobbied

Development of a year-round tennis and pickle ball facility at Centennial Park

 

[Towered]

Of all the curious things to see lobbied.............

Details for Subject Matter Registration: SM32643​

Business/Organization name

2794116 Ontario Inc

Other Trade Names

Toronto West Tennis

Decision(s) or issue(s) to be lobbied

Development of a year-round tennis and pickle ball facility at Centennial Park

I love it! There used to be decent tennis courts in this park (close to the "ski chalet") but they were removed for some reason a long time ago. In a park this big with vast areas of open space, it's a no-brainer to me to have a feature like tennis courts!

 

[Northern Light]

Well, detailed design and implementation is funded for some components from this Master Plan, in the near term.

Based on this tender:

https://wx.toronto.ca/inter/pmmd/calls.nsf/0/95090EABD03B0C56852587AE006D950C?OpenDocument

Short and Long of it being the new Children's play and water play areas; and some ancillary work on paths and parking.

From the above:

 

[Northern Light]

Up next a new skating trail is apparently funded for next year:

 

[Northern Light]

Star article today on the potential demise of the GO-Kart and Batting Cage amusements in the park, as the City has given notice of lease termination effective Nov 30th.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ack-and-batting-cages-in-centennial-park.html (behind paywall)

The owners seem surprised, even though this was all transparently in the Masterplan discussed throughout this thread. I would find it odd if they were not notified as stakeholders or otherwise informed of that process.

Needless to say they are now organizing petitions to extend their lease and oppose the proposed changes going forward.

****

We could debate the relative merit of allowing these facilities to continue, but I don''t get why this debate didn't happen during the plan process.

 

[crs1026]

We could debate the relative merit of allowing these facilities to continue, but I don''t get why this debate didn't happen during the plan process.

I can't say for sure, but I would offer some possibilities:

a) the people who are now reacting may not understand that studies sometimes do lead to action, and may have assumed that a City "study" will come and go
b) With apparently solid demand, there may have been an extra tranche of disbelief that the City would actually disturb the status quo
c) Etobicoke (ie ample back channels to politicians who are especially amenable to selling out to specific interests - especially moneymaking interests - who buttonhole them)

I also wonder about d) maybe the study people didn't poke the sleeping bear especially hard, in the belief that these changes were no-brainers - when certain segments of the population might actually value these amenities more than the new amenities

I'm not a go-kart enthusiast, however one has to accept that there is huge demand in our city for pastimes that aren't on the urban high-values list. And I'm not sure that the answer to that demand is to suggest people drive to the 905 to have their (in some views) baser needs met. So - the City needs go-kart tracks. Maybe not at Centennial Park, but I would ask whether this study thought very hard about how to continue to meet that demand, somewhere south of Steeles.

- Paul

 

[Tim MacDonald]

I did a walkabout Centennial hill earlier in the week while testing a camera. Some random shots for those interested