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Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

What do you believe should be done on the Eglinton Corridor?

  • Do Nothing

    Votes: 5 1.3%
  • Build the Eglinton Crosstown LRT as per Transit City

    Votes: 140 36.9%
  • Revive the Eglinton Subway

    Votes: 226 59.6%
  • Other (Explain in post)

    Votes: 8 2.1%

  • Total voters
    379
To the later, bollux. The Canada Line operating with 2-car trains has more capacity than the Eglinton LRT despite having smaller trains, mainly because operating without red lights allows more effective scheduling. To the former, how can Eglinton possibly have more expensive stations? More than 2/3rds of the "stations" will be glorified bus-stops, whereas all of the Canada Line's are at least stations (i.e. not bustops) even if they are smaller than what Torontonian's consider typical for a subway station.

Anybody who thinks Toronto is getting anything other than screwed by getting a slower system, with less capacity, for more money (per km) is simply unreasonable.


When I said stations, I meant stations, not the stops on the surface. And when comparing underground stations, they will be more expensive as they are bigger, 3x bigger if they are built as full size subway stations to allow for conversion,
 
Half of the Canada line is subsurface and the rest is on a viaduct while a third of Eglinton is subsurface and the rest is a glorified diamond lane with some shrubbery. "Apples to apples", the Canada Line should cost more on a per/km basis as it is 100% grade separated, has a larger relative subsurface portion and higher station density. Any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous.

The only way it isn't an apples to apples comparison is that Eglinton is more expensive, slower and can carry less people.

Why the hell are people so willing to defend the TTC when it is so clearly incompetent? How many better run transit projects have to be shown before people think about what we are being sold on? I hope it isn't because of some silly LRT vs. subway vs. bus thing because it is pretty clear they suck at each of them. Calgary's LRT costs/km are almost a third of what ours are, but their system is faster and has such exotic features as "stations" and raised boarding platforms. It's practically something out of 2001 a Space Odyssey compared to St. Clair. We buy overpriced, unreliable, hybrid buses for at least a 40% premium for no particular reason. Before that there were the CNG buses, before that the Warsaw Pact-built buses. I guess my question is, how clearly does it have to be shown that the TTC is deeply flawed on some fundamental level?
 
I am not one to defend the TTC but in this case I am wondering if the extensive use of cut-and-cover has to do with a lot of the savings on the Canada line. I am sure a fair bit of money could be saved if we were willing to rip up Eglinton for a few years.....again.
 
I am not one to defend the TTC but in this case I am wondering if the extensive use of cut-and-cover has to do with a lot of the savings on the Canada line. I am sure a fair bit of money could be saved if we were willing to rip up Eglinton for a few years.....again.

I don't know exact numbers, but boring is significantly more expensive than cut-and-cover.

Can't speak for Vancouver, but some further issues Eglinton faces are several underground streams (the one under Bayview/Eglinton drove up the cost of building the McDonalds on the SE corner due to foundations issues).

Further, I wonder about weather impacts. Would an elevated Eglinton LRT face complications through the winter months that Vancouver wouldn't?
 
The only way it isn't an apples to apples comparison is that Eglinton is more expensive, slower and can carry less people.
Well, if both lines were built in areas with identical geology, existing subsurface infrastructure, and built with the same construction techniques (cut and cover versus boring), in cities with identical climate conditions.

As it is, not only is it not only apples to apples, I'm not even sure that both are fruit.

None of which is to defend Transit City. I'd much rather have a crosstown "Canada Line" connecting to the airport along with a DRL than the entirety of Transit City.
 
wouldnt a canada line be more similar to a go train line...

and comparing what we are getting to a c train line is nonsense..

a c train line wouldnt help toronto...

theres way too much space between stops... right now ppl complain about walking 5 minutes to a streetcar stop... with c train like stops ppl would have to walk 20 mins.. sure it would be faster but no where near as convienent for our lazy selves. Id rather walk and have speed but apparently im the minority...

If you wanted a fast crosstown line wouldnt the proposed sheppard subway that went along the 401 make the most sense
http://www.thestar.com/News/Ideas/article/429061
 
wouldnt a canada line be more similar to a go train line...
A GO Train? A GO train must be able to carry about 12 times the number of people of the Canada Line ..., is heavy rail. Canada Line is about as close as you are going to get to the SRT technology ... though with less capacity.
 
^

...If anybody thinks something that is slower, carries less people and costs more is a good deal, they are unreasonable...

How will it carry less people? the LRT trains will hold more ppl than the skytrain sets, and the Eglinton line projections are to be between 35million - 40million/year.... about 100k a day.

what's the canada line set to carry??
 
I know nothing about the vancouver line but I lived in Calgary for 3 years and that is not what toronto needs. Maybe a DRL but deff not accross eglinton.. My perfect world would have lrt with only stops at MAIN intersections not every 500m or 800m..
 
How will it carry less people? the LRT trains will hold more ppl than the skytrain sets, and the Eglinton line projections are to be between 35million - 40million/year.... about 100k a day.

what's the canada line set to carry??

"The Canada Line expects about 100,000 riders per day in 2010 and approximately 31 million passengers per year. By 2021, this number is expected to grow to about 45 million passengers per year."

http://canadaline.ca/allFacts.asp


Usually they talk about weekday ridership... you can't divide yearly ridership/365, dividing by about 310 to account for weekends etc like Vancouver has is pretty similar to other systems
 
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A GO Train? A GO train must be able to carry about 12 times the number of people of the Canada Line ..., is heavy rail. Canada Line is about as close as you are going to get to the SRT technology ... though with less capacity.
Are you implying that the Canada line has less capacity than the SRT? Canada Line trains can run totally automated, and are made to run at headways of like 1 minute. Not only do they save money, but they have a much higher capacity and are more comfortable than the SRT.

And oh my god, don't get me started on all the Transit lines we could (should) have. Milton+Midtown Line, Highway 401 BRT, Eglinton Subway, Sheppard Subway, Finch Hydro Corridor as per GO ALRT, 407 Transitway (LRT+Busway,)

But I don't see how the C-Train would be bad. I'd gladly take the C-Train over Transit City LRT any day.
 
"The Canada Line expects about 100,000 riders per day in 2010 and approximately 31 million passengers per year. By 2021, this number is expected to grow to about 45 million passengers per year."

http://canadaline.ca/allFacts.asp


Usually they talk about weekday ridership... you can't divide yearly ridership/365, dividing by about 310 to account for weekends etc like Vancouver has is pretty similar to other systems

Ya, I was really asking the question about the Canada line because I didn't know... so still, its about the same as what's slated for Eglinton, (only CL is slightly less)- For Eglinton LRT:
Ridership in 2006: 32 million
Ridership in 2021: 52 million
(taken from TTC website)
 
They hit 70,000 boardings on day 2 - first full day of regular service - but that probably includes a bunch trying out the ride. Real test will come with bus integration on Sept. 7th.

Currently the frequency of trains is quite low, but it starts running earlier than the Expo and Millennium Lines.

Expo Line / Millennium Line: Frequency
Time of day.............Expo Line branch.........Millennium Line branch.........Combined Service
Peak Hours.................Every 2-4 min..............Every 5-6 min...................Every 2-3 min.
Mid-day and evenings....Every 6 min.................Every 6 min......................Every 3 min.
Late night....................Every 8 min.................Every 8 min......................Every 4 min.
Saturday & Sunday......Every 6-8 min..............Every 6-8 min...................Every 3-4 min.

Canada Line: Frequency
Time of day...............................YVR/Airport branch..........Richmond-Brighouse branch.....Combined Service
Early Mornings...............................Every 12 min...................Every 12 min........................Every 6 min
Midday & weekday peak periods........Every 8 min.....................Every 8 min.........................Every 4 min
Evening........................................Every 12 min...................Every 12 min........................Every 6 min
Late evening (after 11 pm)...............Every 20 min...................Every 20 min.......................Every 10 min


Expo Line: First Train / Last Train
Waterfront | King George...............................Mon-Fri............. Sat............Sun/Holidays
King George to Waterfront........................5:08a/12:38a.....6:08a/12:38a.....7:08a/11:38p
Late Trips
King George to N. Westminster........................1:28a...............1:28a..............12:28a

Waterfront to King George ........................5:35a/1:15a........6:50a/1:15a.....7:50a/12:15a
Early Trips
Edmonds to King George ...............................5:22a...............6:22a...............7:22a

Millennium Line: First Train / Last Train
Waterfront | VCC - Clark via Columbia..............Mon-Fri...............Sat.............Sun/Holidays
VCC - Clark to Waterfront..........................5:31a/12:09a....6:39a/12:09a....7:31a/11:09p
Early Trips
Lougheed to Waterfront.................................5:13a................6:13a...............7:13a
Late Trips
VCC - Clark to N. Westminster.........................1:05a................1:05a..............12:05a
VCC - Clark to Lougheed.................................1:29a................1:29a..............12:29a

Waterfront to VCC - Clark........................5:54a/12:31a........6:54a/12:31a.....7:54a/11:31p
Early Trips
Lougheed to VCC - Clark.................................5:15a................6:15a...............7:15a
22nd St. to VCC - Clark..................................5:29a.................6:29a...............7:29a
Late Trips
Waterfront to Lougheed..................................1:11a.................1:11a...............12:11a

Canada Line: First Train / Last Train
Richmond-Brighouse | YVR/Airport | Waterfront
....................................................First Train .......Last Train
Waterfront to YVR/Airport.......................4:50a...........1:05a
Waterfront to Richmond-Brighouse............5:32a...........1:15a
YVR/Airport to Waterfront.......................5:10a...........12:57a
Richmond-Brighouse to Waterfront............5:05a...........12:48a

Canada Line traffic settles down on Day 2

By Frank Luba, The ProvinceAugust 19, 2009

David Nixon and Briana Wutsch waited until Tuesday to take their two-year-old son, Osiris, for a little ride on the newest train in town — the $2.05 billion Canada Line.

The trio were among the 70,000 people to hop the train on its first official day of operation.

The family lives near the Yaletown-Roundhouse station and were going to try the system Monday — until they saw the massive lineups for the free rides offered as a pre-opening public treat.

“It was too long a wait,” said Nixon.

Their plan was solid, as they got to experience the system Tuesday without being packed into the cars like sardines in a tin.

More than 82,000 riders jammed Canada Line during Monday’s eight-hour preview of the 19-kilometre connection between downtown Vancouver, Richmond and Vancouver International Airport. InTransitBC spokesman Steve Crombie said only about 50,000 riders were expected, and the extra passengers forced the line to put on 19 two-car trains instead of the 15 initially used. The planned schedule was dropped too.

“We started trains basically as often as we could,” said Crombie.

Paid service started Tuesday morning at 4:50 a.m. from Waterfront Station and by 9:30 a.m., electronic counters showed just 9,000 people had crossed into fare-paid zones where they needed tickets. The number jumped to 33,000 by 2:15 p.m and hit 60,000 just before 6 p.m. — “so we’re anticipating we’ll hit at least 70,000 for the day,” said Crombie.

Unlike the waits Monday that were as long as two hours at some stations, commuters — including a surprising number with suitcases headed to the airport — got a more “normal” view of the line than Monday’s almost excursion-like trip.

Nixon, 34, and Wutsch, 25, liked what they saw.

“It reminds me of other cities where I have taken metros or subways,” said Nixon, who owns a chain of clothing stores.

Wutsch thinks the line will be most useful for Richmond residents wanting to get into Vancouver, but she plans to use it for trips to the airport when she travels with her toddler.

“It will be nice not to have to drive,” she said.

Both were particularly happy the line has finally been finished.

“We’ve been dealing with the construction for three years,” said Nixon.

“We’ve been living in a gated community,” joked Wutsch of the controlled access in their neighborhood. “It was a little rough. The dust and the noise and the trucks — but I guess it’s worth it.”

As with almost anything new, there’s always a little confusion, and that continued Tuesday as people struggled to figure out which train they needed.

There was also a hiccup with the new ticket-vending machines. People had trouble purchasing tickets with debit or credit cards because the new machines need to retain the cards longer than the older ticket machines. The new machines have three yellow lights and users must wait for all three lights to be lit up before withdrawing their card.

Making it easy to pay is a priority for the line, because its business case was predicated on attracting 100,000 riders a day — a total that was supposed to be reached by 2013.

TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said current ridership is not an accurate “barometer” of ridership because buses won’t be fully integrated with the line until Sept. 7, the day of the next regular bus schedule change.

“After Sept. 6, after Labor Day, is when all of the buses start focusing on the Bridgeport Station and Brighouse [station],” he said.

— with a file from Jack Keating

fluba@theprovince.com

© Copyright (c) The Province

EDIT: Hit 83,000 on Tuesday:

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/53735857.html
 
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Ya, I was really asking the question about the Canada line because I didn't know... so still, its about the same as what's slated for Eglinton, (only CL is slightly less)- For Eglinton LRT:
Ridership in 2006: 32 million
Ridership in 2021: 52 million
(taken from TTC website)

Also note that Metrolinx is predicting 62.7 million for Eglinton (± 33 KM), around 200-210k per weekday... which is similar to the Expo Skytrain line (210k, 29 KM), Stockholm Blue Metro line (200k, 24.5 KM), just under Chicago's busiest Red Line (214k, 37.7km), and busier than London's Metropolitan line (186k, 67KM) and Boston's Red Line (178k, 33km). Probably why they have been pressing for some kind of Skytrain or Canada Line-like system instead of streetcars that stop at red lights.

(edit: the KM are provided to give an idea of how big a line is, not to compare riders per KM)
 
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They hit 70,000 boardings on day 2 - first full day of regular service - but that probably includes a bunch trying out the ride. Real test will come with bus integration on Sept. 7th.

It is currently free to the public so they can take a look.
 

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