Education of newcomers to Canada (moved from transport)

[cacruden]

How does Scandanavia,Australia and many other developed countries and cities do it?This generous government should stop giving handouts to special groups.religions.refugees etc and start using some of that cash on our transportation infastructure.

Here is an example of a contribution of aprox $25million handed out by Ontario government that could of easly gone into our transportation infastructure.

40 ON $24,882,505 Toronto District
School Board
Citizenship &
Immigr.
Basic English language training for adult
newcomers to Canada, Contribution

I think every new Canadian should know Basic English before Canada excepts them as a landed immigrant.Let that burden be on the country of origin.

There are several classes of immigrants to Canada, the skilled immigration (largest class) - is points based - and it is almost impossible to immigrate without getting some language points (English and/or French).

ESL language training is needed for two groups of immigrants, those that hop the fence and declare refugee status (not real refugees but our system takes forever to deport them - if ever), and REAL refugees - those that we actually have to help get here from third countries. For me, I see Education as one of the very top priorities that we have as a country - since we are really investing in our future. And in a lot of cases, the people that we subsidize for ESL will eventually pay back that investment. For example, when I was younger - my parents sponsored a Vietnamese family, who were in a refugee camp, which lived with us for 18 months while they got their feet under them. They took ESL language courses at the college, and some skill training, and have become relatively successful (enough so that they at one point owned 2 houses) and have more than paid back the investment in them. There are of course others that never do, but on average I believe that the money is well spent.

Toronto has benefited from a diverse immigration policy (IMHO). When I was younger - I hated the idea of immigrating to Toronto for work (from small town Ontario/PEI) - because it was boring..... I preferred Montreal. It is amazing how much things have changed in 25 years.... where Toronto has become an interesting and diverse city. Are there problems - yes - there will always be problems.... Do I think that there are generally cultural problems with immigration from certain countries - yes..... I have to admit I prefer immigration from Asia than some other countries since IMHO they tend to integrate into society much easier..... I would like us to work on a trade agreement with ASEAN (primarily Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand) which includes full labour mobility for employment purposes. Malaysia actually was one of the visa waiver countries that we had before 911, but after, we omitted them due to concerns from the US. I would prefer we at least reinstate visa waivers for Malaysia, Singapore (which already has it), Thailand (addition), and be open to extending it to others such as Laos, Vietnam etc.

Of course I also support full trade agreements, with labour mobility with Europe, and the US. I would even consider adding China to it, but that would be a little farther out.

 

[Whoaccio]

Of all "handouts to special groups.religions.refugees etc...", I find it odd that you would pick on ESL specifically. As far as investments in "social capital" go, ESL training is probably one of the best bang/buck programs going. If you had made this argument about, say, subsidizing Toronto area cricket clubs or government funding for various random cultural festivals, I could see your point. ESL though? Come on.

 

[prosperegal]

What about socially integrating (or at least being aware and not condemning) to mainstream Canadian society? What not being surprised that their Canadian-raised kids aren't necessarily going to be as "old country" as they are? The Chinese community doesn't seem to overwhelmingly condemn Canadian-raised kids and their behaviour, unless it's really unreasonable (e.g. dropping out of school to become a hip hop artist, selling drugs, etc...). In fact, there's a term for people like me...jook sing (hollow bamboo...neither one or the other) and many of us are actually proud to be jook sing.

 

[lordmandeep]

Yeah usually Immigrant parents allow their Children to become part of Canadian culture but would not tolerate certain things.

Like their kid selling drugs or having sex at 14 or becoming a homosexual.


I think the last part, is something a lot of Canadian parents would have trouble accepting.

 

[cacruden]

Yeah usually Immigrant parents allow their Children to become part of Canadian culture but would not tolerate certain things.

Like their kid selling drugs or having sex at 14 or becoming a homosexual.


I think the last part, is something a lot of Canadian parents would have trouble accepting.

When I was younger, my parents gave a school friend of mine a lift, and then came back and my mother was asking why I did not dress as well as my friend. I asked my mom if she would also like me to sell drugs like my friend - she never bugged me about dressing as well as him again

If I were gay, I think it would be a shock to my parents initially, but I am quite sure they would get over it pretty quickly.

 

[prosperegal]

Yeah usually Immigrant parents allow their Children to become part of Canadian culture but would not tolerate certain things.

Like their kid selling drugs or having sex at 14 or becoming a homosexual.


I think the last part, is something a lot of Canadian parents would have trouble accepting.

Most Canadian parents wouldn't be accepting of any of those. However, there are some immigrant parents who're obessed with their kids going to university. I just looked at some TDSB stats regarding students and the languages they speak at home. According to the TDSB, 39% of North Toronto Collegiate (a more academic-focused high school) speak a language other than English at home. Nearby Northern Secondary, which has a tech/commercial program (though still very academic-focused) 24% of the kids speak another language at home. Both schools more or less serve the same area of the city.

Other examples:

Jarvis Collegiate - 74% speak a language other than English vs

Central Tech: 56% speak a language other than English

In the old days*, it would have been the other way around. Academic schools like North Toronto and Jarvis were filled with kids preparing for university (thus being designated a "Collegiate Institute"), and were NOT generally immigrants or kids of immigrants. They were also more likely to be solidly middle class to upper middle class. Technical schools were generally in lower income to middle class areas, often areas with newcomers to Canada.


*this was according to a few professors I had in graduate school

 

[Glen]

Of all "handouts to special groups.religions.refugees etc...", I find it odd that you would pick on ESL specifically. As far as investments in "social capital" go, ESL training is probably one of the best bang/buck programs going. If you had made this argument about, say, subsidizing Toronto area cricket clubs or government funding for various random cultural festivals, I could see your point. ESL though? Come on.

It is unfortunate that a sizable portion of ESL funds have been used for general purposes in our school boards.

 

[Brian69]

It is unfortunate that a sizable portion of ESL funds have been used for general purposes in our school boards.

That's a good point. The school where I work has nearly 75% of the population using a language other than English as the first language at home yet ESL resources don't even begin to meet the demand. It actually affects Canadian-born children of immigrants more than those born overseas.

Many parents of immigrant children are somewhat obsessed with success, though when you see them struggling to make an income in Canada even though they used to have decent jobs in their home countries it's not hard to understand why. They want their children to succeed in Canada with a Canadian education under their belts. There's a stigma over certain jobs as well. Many immigrant parents wouldn't even think of their children going into the trades even though the pay is better than many "regular" jobs these days and opportunities are greater.

ESL is only one part of the equation. Employers don't want immigrants with accents even though the actual language level is more than acceptable. Many jobs ask for "excellent communication skills", something that appears to be a codeword for "sounding like a native speaker." And with more and more children of immigrants speaking English with little or no accent its easier to cover the affirmative action angle while still shutting out many recent immigrants and continuing the cycle of frustration.

Canada also sets up immigrants for failure by letting people in based on their professional backgrounds but not recognizing university degrees and other credentials (justified or not) and not letting immigrants know which jobs are actually possible to get into here in Canada. The same goes for experience gained in their home countries. Too many teachers and engineers come here and compete with Canadian-born for fewer and fewer jobs. While I don't necessarily advocate reducing immigration I believe we should do a much better job at matching immigrants to potential jobs otherwise the government is adding to overqualified people doing jobs that barely pay enough to survive. As we get away from family class immigration we expect high education standards from non-refugees but this does little to guarantee they will find work.

 

[prosperegal]

That's a good point. The school where I work has nearly 75% of the population using a language other than English as the first language at home yet ESL resources don't even begin to meet the demand. It actually affects Canadian-born children of immigrants more than those born overseas.

Many parents of immigrant children are somewhat obsessed with success, though when you see them struggling to make an income in Canada even though they used to have decent jobs in their home countries it's not hard to understand why. They want their children to succeed in Canada with a Canadian education under their belts. There's a stigma over certain jobs as well. Many immigrant parents wouldn't even think of their children going into the trades even though the pay is better than many "regular" jobs these days and opportunities are greater.

ESL is only one part of the equation. Employers don't want immigrants with accents even though the actual language level is more than acceptable. Many jobs ask for "excellent communication skills", something that appears to be a codeword for "sounding like a native speaker." And with more and more children of immigrants speaking English with little or no accent its easier to cover the affirmative action angle while still shutting out many recent immigrants and continuing the cycle of frustration.

Canada also sets up immigrants for failure by letting people in based on their professional backgrounds but not recognizing university degrees and other credentials (justified or not) and not letting immigrants know which jobs are actually possible to get into here in Canada. The same goes for experience gained in their home countries. Too many teachers and engineers come here and compete with Canadian-born for fewer and fewer jobs. While I don't necessarily advocate reducing immigration I believe we should do a much better job at matching immigrants to potential jobs otherwise the government is adding to overqualified people doing jobs that barely pay enough to survive. As we get away from family class immigration we expect high education standards from non-refugees but this does little to guarantee they will find work.

I think the education system is years behind (at least from a Toronto perspective) when it comes to tailoring ESL to Canadian-born children. Twenty-five years ago it was very possible for a child to learn English just by immersion (I was one of those kids! I went into JK in September 1983 only knowing my name and a few basic words. I now sound like this. - most of the kids in the class would have been from English-speaking homes. Not anymore, and the Ontario government doesn't realize this, nor do the TDSB and the Catholic Boards really acknowledge or openly activate for a change (at least from what I've been hearing.

 

[Glen]

Brian69,

The boards do the same with monies that are supposed to go towards special ed.



prosperegal,

You can't get ESL resources before Grade 1. Usually if a student enters school in JK with no English they will not require much, if any ESL resources. Those plastic little minds learn quick.

 

[prosperegal]

Brian69,

The boards do the same with monies that are supposed to go towards special ed.



prosperegal,

You can't get ESL resources before Grade 1. Usually if a student enters school in JK with no English they will not require much, if any ESL resources. Those plastic little minds learn quick.

Yes and no. If a kid goes to a school in an area with a lot of people who speak the same language he/she speaks at home, it's not likely the kid will learn English all that quickly. He/she will not be hearing English beyond what the teacher says because he/she. Toronto has changed A LOT since the 1980s. My elementary school I attended in JK/SK was primarily Jewish and English speaking in the mid 80s. According to toronto.ca, the non-English speaking population seems to be of Chinese descent and the TDSB site says64% of the students there speak another language at home (there's a typo on the PDF...the school is JK-Grade 6, not Grade 5. They feed into Zion Heights Junior High, a 7-9 school.

 

[Mot]

I think ESL is a great program and well worth every penny. I wish they would expand it. I am native English speaker but my partner is not. He speaks English well and writes fair. I wish they would have programs catered to different skill levels of English or that just focus on writing. Maybe they have them, we just can't find them.

Finding a job as an immigrant is not easy, they have this idiotic excuse about not having "canadian experience". Every immigrant I know has heard this excuse being used and especially the ones with accents.

 

[cacruden]

I think ESL is a great program and well worth every penny. I wish they would expand it. I am native English speaker but my partner is not. He speaks English well and writes fair. I wish they would have programs catered to different skill levels of English or that just focus on writing. Maybe they have them, we just can't find them.

I would expect that this type of course - if offered - would be in the domain of the Community College (of which there are a number in Toronto). If the College does not currently offer a course similar to that - then if you believe in the need for the course - you should try and approach people at the college (my guess would be in skills and development).... and make a proposal. It is always worth a shot, but be prepared to do considerable ground work to draw up a business plan.... and see if there are like minded people interested in taking it.

Finding a job as an immigrant is not easy, they have this idiotic excuse about not having "canadian experience". Every immigrant I know has heard this excuse being used and especially the ones with accents.

I would not expect different, as an immigrant to a country where there is considerable difference (i.e. language), it is already going to be a handycap. It is not the employer that has to figure out how you will fit into the company, but the job seeker to approach it like any other sales job on why you are the right person for the company and what you can do for the company. If the person that is interviewing you has to figure out how your skills would be used - you have already probably lost the opportunity. Language skills are of course very important in selling.

I have just started taking Thai (fifth 2 hour session) as a second language (I ran out of cooking courses to take ), and I already know that the first thing that will make it easier is if I can read Thai (the current course is using phonetics - sort of Romanji phonetics - to help me learn how to speak Thai). I actually find the phonetic spelling to be a little problematic, since they phonetic speaking is usually a little geared towards more latin languages (i.e. non-english letter sounds) - so I figure if I learn their written language - with their phonetics associated with it - it will help tremendously. I find that I learn more from visual context than anything other. Language has never been my strong point - I was more interested in Math/Science in school.

Additionally, I can understand that a large community can hinder learning a language -- one of the businesses in Jonqueire (sp?) Quebec is to teach people French -- where you are thrown into a smaller town - take courses - and the local population knows that they are not suppose to speak English to you - and you are not suppose to speak English - with the potential that you could be expelled for violating the rules. Maybe they should offer special emersion courses in small towns in Ontario for ESL emersion. Six weeks of that will give you a good start.

 

[kEiThZ]

Finding a job as an immigrant is not easy, they have this idiotic excuse about not having "canadian experience". Every immigrant I know has heard this excuse being used and especially the ones with accents.

I second this. The 'Canadian Experience' part is crap. It has nothing to do with the accent (well maybe sometimes). Most of the time it has to do with resume readers being too lazy to attempt to understand the individuals experience and evaluate it against their needs. That's why we have taxi drivers who are doctors and engineers back home.

Using my own father as an example. A construction engineer who had tons of experience in the Middle East before moving to Canada. His english was fluent. And he had experience dealing with Western clients, contractors and suppliers while overseas. But when he gets here, nobody will hire him because he lacks 'Canadian Experience.' Never mind that many of the projects he worked on were built to standards much higher than those in Canada with all documentation in english. His career never recovered. He end up working as a technologist for a few years, was unemployed for a year, worked as a security guard and eventually started a small print shop. I am grateful for his sacrifice. But I truly despise the social system here that would waste such talent. One family friend who moved on from Ontario a couple of years ago became doctor of year in Michigan State. But in Ontario, she doesn't even get a license to practice.

This is exactly why the rest of my family won't immigrate to Canada any more. And they are all highly paid doctors, engineers, accountants and lawyers. The new destination of choice has become Australia which is far better at accepting foreign qualifications and where employers don't demand 'Australian experience'. New Zealand and the UK are next on the list for all Asians (particularly South Asians) and of course the US. Canada's increasingly falling lower and lower on the list. Too bad. Canada's loss.

 

[cacruden]

"Canadian Experience" means different things to different people.... Canadian's are not that knowledgeable about standards overseas, nor whether the work experience translates. Experience is typically more important than education in Canada - which is why the unemployment rate is much higher for people first joining the work force. And yes, there is a bias (arrogance in some cases), that we Canada are a developed nation and so far above any other nation - not so developed. In fact, I find a large number of doctors (general) to be pretty much incompetent.... and they are accredited

The accreditations - that is a major major problem in Canada. Unfortunately it is often recognized, but so slow to be rectified. There are hundreds of countries, and hundreds of professions, which really each need to be investigated to determine if it is equivalent - or - whether there is a gap that should be filled before being accredited in Canada. It is not that surprising since it is also a province to province problem. Unfortunately there is a huge hole there - and often it leads to not being able to be accredited unless you end up taking everything again at an accredited institution. This is a big inefficiency within our economy. There has to be a solution, and there should be some major work done on it - but it is not a small problem - since each each of these combinations should really be identified. This should be a priority.

Now a stop-gap would be to allow for a compromise, which would be to require an internship, or articling process where people from professions from non-accredited institutions/countries to work under supervision of an accredited professional for a few years. Yes, it is a step down - but at least it is a way to work (earn money), while getting Canadian accreditation.