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Edmonton's Trolley Buses to Cease in 2010

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I posted this in the Toronto section, as there is some discussion of bringing trolleys back in Toronto. IMO it's ridiculous to replace the trolleys with hybrids.. basically a proven technology being replaced by one that has emerging problems.

Trolleys reach end of the line

Council votes 7-6 to scrap electric vehicles to buy 47 hybrid buses


Gordon Kent, The Edmonton Journal

Published: 7:14 am
EDMONTON - One of North America's last trolley systems will be unplugged by 2010 after Edmonton councillors decided Wednesday to scrap the vehicles and buy 47 hybrid buses instead.
The 7-6 vote pitted a group that wanted to keep the electric-powered trolleys as a hedge against rising oil prices against a majority swayed by reports indicating the city would pay an extra $100 million over 18 years to keep the fleet operating.
The swing vote came from Coun. Linda Sloan, the only councillor who didn't express an opinion during the lengthy council meeting or at a public hearing last week. "It came down to my belief ... LRT is the system we put millions of dollars into," she said later. "We need to expand it. To divide our investment between trolleys and LRT, I don't think is a prudent use of resources.
"I believe the LRT system should continue as the backbone of our transit system, and we couldn't invest in both."
Coun. Amarjeet Sohi was concerned that spending money on trolleys would not add service in communities that have been waiting years to see improvements.
Such a move might also make it harder for the city to push for increased transit grants, he said.
"If we're not using money wisely and are not demonstrating we're using resources effectively, we will not be able to make an argument (for funding) to other levels of government."
The debate over the future of the trolleys has come up repeatedly since the mid-1990s. Councillors voted in 2004 to keep the equipment until this year while alternatives were evaluated.
But senior transportation officials were unanimous in their opinion that trolleys, running on expensive overhead wires along a small number of routes, are too costly and inefficient to retain.
Just four of the 1,500 American transit systems still use the vehicles, and Vancouver is the only other Canadian city where they operate, transportation general manager Bob Boutilier said.
Production of the machines peaked in 1948, he said.
"Every dollar you spend on trolleys is money that's not being spent on other transit service and other transit technology."
University of Alberta engineering professor David Checkel wrote a consultant's report indicating the vehicles cost four times more to run per kilometre than diesel or hybrid buses, while producing more total air pollution because they use electricity generated by burning coal.
He accused his many critics of taking a "nostalgic" approach that doesn't reflect improvements in modern buses.
"I would rather see us spend money to put more buses on the streets so we can get more cars off the road," he said.
But Coun. Don Iveson said the information provided didn't consider a variety of important factors, such as the impact of increased population density along trolley routes. "We need to look beyond a snapshot analysis," he said.
Edmonton Transit will start next year to phase out its 40 trolleys, which were bought in 1982. They make up about three per cent of the city's total bus fleet.
Councillors hope to use some of the money saved by cutting trolleys to help pay for a $270-million plan to increase transit ridership by 50 per cent over the next five years.
gkent@thejournal.canwest.com
 
"Every dollar you spend on trolleys is money that's not being spent on other transit service and other transit technology."

And I counter with:

Every dollar you spend on hybrid buses could be used to buy 1.5 regular buses that would take even more than its share of emissions in cars off the road.
 
And I counter with:

Every dollar you spend on hybrid buses could be used to buy 1.5 regular buses that would take even more than its share of emissions in cars off the road.

And every dollar you spend on a regular bus could be spent on 10 hybrid cars...

And every dollar you spend on a hybrid car could be spent on 50 high-end bicyles...

And every dollar you spend on a high end bicyle could be spent on 10 nice pairs of running shoes...

I don't like that argument because it could, in the hands of a foolish council, spiral out of control.

Transit is expensive, and while trying to spend the lowest amount of money to solve the problem is generally a good idea, it tends not the cheapest in the long run.

Hybrid buses are a good idea, but the Toronto experience has proved that they don't save as much gas advertised. The only way to make them cheaper than diesels in the long run is to extend the long run.
 
Diesel buses only have a life span of 8-12 years. Trolley buses and streetcars have a life span of 30± years. During that span, maintenance costs for the diesel buses are more than the electric motors.
 
The ETS took a very apathetic approach to maintaining its trolley fleet and routes, so it doesn't surprise me that it would put it out to pasture. I'm almost surprised it didn't happen sooner. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I was living there six years ago the service was down to two routes: Jasper Ave. and 109th street, and trolley buses weren't even the primary vehicles serving those routes. Plus, weren't those buses hand-me-downs from Toronto?

Trolleys came so infrequently in Edmonton that they largely served a nostalgic, rather than practical purpose. One loss will be to the makeup of some of the neighbourhoods they serve. Edmonton has just three areas that might be described as "urban", and the trolleys ran through two of them. The little neighbourhood around Stony Plain and 156th St., in particular, was heavily characterized by the trolley loop. Even if it didn't affect the travel patterns of the residents, I fear the area will lose some of its charm the way that parts of Hamilton and Weston did after their trolley systems were abandoned.
 
Actually it's the reverse. Edmonton leased its BBC Trolleys to the TTC. That was why the trolleys made a brief reappearance on 6 Bay because Edmonton wouldn't let the TTC break the lease.

There's actually several routes that have trolleys, 5, 7, 9, 120, 135, to name a few. Though that's diminished a bit as road construction cut off various parts of the trolley routes over the past few years, limiting their use.
 
I am sad to read that Edmonton Council does not support their trolley buses. I took a trip around North America a few years ago just to enjoy electric transit - and ride all the trolley bus systems: Edmonton, Vancouver, Seattle, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Boston (Dayton earlier). It was amazing to whisper across the aisle to a friend while one bus was stopped at an intersection. They're that quiet!

There seems to be an ongoing bias against electric trolley buses. Apart from San Francisco and Vancouver, the studies always seem biased in favour of newer technology.. which time and again fails. Howard Moscoe, a past chair of the TTC said that adopting CNG buses was a mistake, given the ensuing maintenance problems. Now we read that the hybrid buses don't save as much money as earlier touted. As for the argument that coal is burned to produce their electricity, doesn't Calgary boast that its LRT is powered by the wind? (Same province, isn't it?)
 
Calgary's isn't powered by wind per-say. It's hooked up to the regular grid, but the city has invested in a wind farm that produces the equivalent amount of energy.
 
I'd love to see a few routes wired again, and think that Wilson garage would be the ideal place to run trolley buses from, considering that it serves several busy routes with limited branches and run completely within the city of Toronto, and over looked by Transit City.

7 Bathurst, 29 Dufferin, 63 Ossington would be the obvious routes for now. 89 Weston and 41 Keele would be great choices if Mount Dennis was wired, though 41 Keele would be easy to do from Wilson.

For whatever, mid-west routes would be the easiest to electrify, just as they were in the 1940s/1950s.

Barton Street in Hamilton and Lansdowne, Ossington, Weston, Dundas West and Rogers Road in particular don't feel the same without them. Trolley buses surely fit in with the gritty context.

I just barely missed them in Toronto (I remember them, but never had the chance to ride them). I have rode electric buses in Vancouver and San Francisco, and the dual modes in Boston.
 

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