News   Jul 12, 2024
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News   Jul 12, 2024
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East Bayfront: Bayside (Waterfront Toronto/Hines/Tridel, Pelli Clark Pelli et al)

where do you see any "grand and magnificent cultural components" on Toronto's Central Waterfront? [...]

Toronto needs more first rate major attractions, especially on the waterfront, of which we have NONE! Harbourfront is nice as a whole but it has no major attractions

This is my biggest disappointment with the whole waterfront revitalization -- there is no sense of major cultural features, nothing like, say the Sydney Opera House. The scale of the waterfront is very restrained, and the whole vibe, with the leaf motifs and the tree trunk light standards and the Algonquin beach chairs, is very much "cottage country" rather than "largest urban centre in Canada". It's not a metropolitan waterfront. The results so far look pleasant, and I'm sure I'll enjoy going down there, but I think it could have been a lot more.
 
This is my biggest disappointment with the whole waterfront revitalization -- there is no sense of major cultural features, nothing like, say the Sydney Opera House. The scale of the waterfront is very restrained, and the whole vibe, with the leaf motifs and the tree trunk light standards and the Algonquin beach chairs, is very much "cottage country" rather than "largest urban centre in Canada". It's not a metropolitan waterfront. The results so far look pleasant, and I'm sure I'll enjoy going down there, but I think it could have been a lot more.

I don't think Toronto has the money to add a cultural cherry to ever piece of the waterfront cake.

But I want to ask this:

What does this area need to satisfy everyone? (Please don't say cafes)
 
I don't think Toronto has the money to add a cultural cherry to ever piece of the waterfront cake.

But I want to ask this:

What does this area need to satisfy everyone? (Please don't say cafes)

I have to agree with Tulse - there is no grand scheme for our waterfront. There should be something spectacular and iconic - but all we get are low-rise condos and an extension of the boardwalk. Fizzle.

I guess T.O. will have to be content with just another Ripleys aquarium to set us apart from......?
 
I have to agree with Tulse - there is no grand scheme for our waterfront. There should be something spectacular and iconic - but all we get are low-rise condos and an extension of the boardwalk. Fizzle.

I guess T.O. will have to be content with just another Ripleys aquarium to set us apart from......?

Like what? Elaborate everyone! :)
 
Like what? Elaborate everyone! :)

A larger museum of modern art, with a permanent collection.

A large theatre.

A major outdoor sculpture garden.

A collection of nightclubs/high-end restaurants that integrate with the water.

A maritime museum/museum of Toronto/museum of industry.

And these kind of projects should be housed in thoughtful, architecturally significant buildings.

Those are just some ideas.
 
I said it before but might as well repeat it ... this is one small parcel on the waterfront, there are many more to come - and there's nothing stopping a major attraction from being built there ... actually, don't we already know there is one planed on a certain parcel of land - the "secret" project know one really knows about?

Here's the thing ... if you've ever been to other cities that have large cultural districts, with nothing other then museums and attractions ... they just don't work! Sure they're great at certain times of the day - but with dense concentration of residential / commercial development in the area, that's what really makes its a great neighborhood, and distinct!

If the entire waterfront development goes without a major attraction, then I agree, it could have been better, in the sense it might turn into a great neighborhood but not a major attraction ... just to remind you folks, this could describe a lot of Toronto if you stop and think about it, and many of you don't seem to complain but still, I agree ..
 
I completely agree. Districts with only big cultural attractions are rarely successful. A big museum is yet another single sentence "solution" to building a great neighbourhood.
 
Is it possible that Toronto isn't a waterfront city and well.. may never be one? The chicago lakefront is gorgeous in parts, but the city isn't bound to its water like say Paris relates to the Seine. Anyone who is hanging out on College in Little Italy isn't going to have a connection to the lake.

Someone posted a photo a couple of days ago in Trump Toronto thread which a view of TT from East, overlooking the ravine. To me that vantage jhas the potential to be more "iconic" then the waterfront vantage.

Toronto's flirtation and annoyance with our waterfront is one of those Toronto - we're not world class - untill we have a waterfront isms. In some ways I'd rather see Toronto embrace our ravines more, whihc are unique and IMHO have shaped our city more then our waterfront.
 
I completely agree. Districts with only big cultural attractions are rarely successful. A big museum is yet another single sentence "solution" to building a great neighbourhood.

In that sense I'll agree with you that we really will have no idea how this will turn out until it ... well ... actually does.
Same goes for all these other planned communities across the GTA ... downtown Markham and the like. The one thing I like is we're using different developers for the various parcels of land - I'm hoping that'll lead to some variety
 
Well, taal, I think we can be pretty certain based on very similar developments that have been built in the past that it won't be too successful as a neighbourhood. I mean, sure, this is better than the Ft. Lauderdalesque gated condo complex that is Pier 27, but it's still turning its back on the water and it won't have anything remotely interesting or unique to draw people in. And I'm not talking about an opera house or art gallery here. Queen Street or Kensington Market or the Danforth don't need an aquarium to be attractive to thousands of people every day. And Bremner Blvd, despite two stadia, the world's tallest building, a convention centre, multiple parks, and a heritage roundhouse, is still a pretty dismal place.

Is it possible that Toronto isn't a waterfront city and well.. may never be one? The chicago lakefront is gorgeous in parts, but the city isn't bound to its water like say Paris relates to the Seine. Anyone who is hanging out on College in Little Italy isn't going to have a connection to the lake.

Someone posted a photo a couple of days ago in Trump Toronto thread which a view of TT from East, overlooking the ravine. To me that vantage jhas the potential to be more "iconic" then the waterfront vantage.

Toronto's flirtation and annoyance with our waterfront is one of those Toronto - we're not world class - untill we have a waterfront isms. In some ways I'd rather see Toronto embrace our ravines more, whihc are unique and IMHO have shaped our city more then our waterfront.

I think it would be a real shame to throw away our magnificent lake front just because it's hard to make it work. It really is by far our most attractive feature to anybody looking at the city from an outside perspective. The thousands of people who go down to Queens Quay, between Spadina and Yonge unquestionably one of our most unpleasant major downtown streets, can attest to that.
 
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You say it won't be successful, yet you can't describe what it would take for to be successful - if you can't asses that you really have no idea how it's going to turn out.
You can't create a Queen W or a Kensigton by drawing a site plan - these things evolve naturally overtime ... the bones are there ...
 
I have to agree with Tulse - there is no grand scheme for our waterfront. There should be something spectacular and iconic - but all we get are low-rise condos and an extension of the boardwalk. Fizzle.

I guess T.O. will have to be content with just another Ripleys aquarium to set us apart from......?

What about the huge Donlands park and ~8 storey Portlands Sports Arena?

This is just a few blocks of a much larger neighbourhood. That needs to be taken into consideration.
 
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I'm going to re-run today's Feature Project story here so that the additional renderings that we worked in there get a chance to appear here as well, a whole 36.5% larger! Yeehah! So, please forgive the reappearance of the initial renders; I assume that won't be too much of a problem for anyone...

- - - - -

WaterfrontToronto has unveiled plans for Bayside, its largest makeover yet, a 4 hectare (10 acre) parcel on the south side of Queens Quay Boulevard between Sherbourne and Parliament Streets. The winning proponent from a short list of 4 bidders is the American developer Hines. Hines' portfolio includes 675 buildings around the world, including the Atrium On Bay in Toronto. To assist them in creating 2 million square feet of space at Bayside, Hines has hired Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects of New Haven, CT, headed by world renowned AIA Gold Medal winner Cesar Pelli, along with Ehrenkrantz, Eckstut & Kuhn Architects, of New York, NY, and Toronto-based Adamson Associates Architects.

BaysideAnnotatedPlanF.jpg


The rendering above shows more than just the Bayside property, so we have outlined the area in question in red, and labeled significant sites around it. For example, you will note in the background Moshe Safdie's diagonally striated tower for Great Gulf that was announced earlier this year and which is going ahead separately.

So, let's zoom in a bit closer to Bayside. The buildings rendered here are concept design only, and are not at the detail design stage yet, but they represent about 2 million square feet of space, 70% of which will be about 1700 residential units. Two buildings facing Queens Quay Blvd. will be offices, while much of the ground level units across the site will be retail and restaurant uses. Day care, a fitness club, and possibly a library are also included in the plans. Streets are short to keep winds from building, and to keep cars from racing through the neighbourhood.

EBayfrontOverallCropF.jpg



Before we zoom in further for more detail though, here's a reminder of the site's current context, or at least the site as it was in the spring:

EBayfrontAerialF.jpg



Here it is in its broader context:

EBayfrontContextPlanF.jpg



And here's the local plan:

EBayfrontPlanF.jpg



Ground level land uses will be as such:

EBayfrontGroundPlanF.jpg



This rendering portrays Phase 1 of the project along the east side of Sherbourne Common in the summer, fall, and winter. (Imagine spring on your own.) Residential units will be built in the podium and mid-rise portions of the buildings pictured, with mostly retail and restaurant space at ground level. Note 'Bayside Hall', a climate controlled space between the two buildings which will provide public access from the Common through the block to Bonnycastle Street year round. Bayside Hall will be a place to escape the heat or the cold or the wet on extreme-weather days, and will provide food service and convenience shops for the public. Just outside the hall is Sherbourne Common's Pavilion.

EBayfrontSherbCmnSummerF.jpg


EBayfrontSherbCmnFallF.jpg


EBayfrontSherbCmnWinterF.jpg



East of these buildings is Bonnycastle Street, the neighbourhood's Main Street. It will be "double loaded" - shops on both sides - and will make for the lively, public heart of the area. Here is Bonnycastle looking south, day and evening:

EBayfrontBonnycastleDayF.jpg


EBayfrontBonnycastleSouthF.jpg



East of Bonnycastle Street, the next opening from the neighbourhood to the lake is at the quieter Aitken Place Park. The renderings below picture it in summer and fall:

EBayfrontEPromenadeSummerF.jpg


EBayfrontEPromenadeFallF.jpg



EBayfrontSkylineF.jpg


So we end for now with a view over Bayside back toward the downtown skyline, but do look for a video of the whole site here. Once it goes up on YouTube we will link it directly.

All renderings courtesy of Hines. First image annotated by UrbanToronto.


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Thanks i42

re: liveliness

One simple modification would IMO be sufficient - instead of having few retailers with extended frontage - all you need is have more retailers with narrower ones with space that perhaps extend to the upper floors. That would create a greater diversity of usage with the potential to draw on different kinds of customers at different times of the day.

AoD
 
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I agree. We will not get the quirky little shops if the retail spaces are all large ground floor units.

I am not sure there is a need for any attractions to draw others down here (except for a great promenade along the waterfront). If they are able to create a great community for the people who do reside in the area, it will be a success in my view.
 

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